Slippery people (1 Viewer)

Taghkanic

Straight Flush
Supporter
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
8,199
Reaction score
12,019
Location
Columbia County, NY
INTRO — Part I

Here’s a little cautionary tale about how not to get a new private game off on the right foot, and how not to alienate other hosts...

Earlier this year, I started seeing a new player at a bunch of different homes/private games where I play. The player was a woman in her 30s. She played pretty tight, rarely getting it in without the nuts. She was pleasant enough to chat with, and seemed respectful of the game. Over time I learned that she was a parent and homeowner. Occasionally I’d also run into her at the nearest casino.

Let’s call her Sally.

Somewhat oddly, Sally always had her younger brother accompany her to these games. The brother never played, but would sit quietly, sometimes eating the host’s food. She never ate anything—said she had stomach issues—so the hosts did not seem to mind. He, too, was pleasant to chat with if you engaged him. I asked one of the hosts at some point why she always brought her brother, and was told that it was because her husband was a bit worried about her being out late on her own, gambling with random people.

At one point, a host who I like and trust, who is also a part-time dealer, suggested that I invite Sally to my game. He knew her much the same way I did, but had gotten to know her better and said she seemed solid. He also asked around at the local casino among dealers he knew and no one seemed to have anything bad to say about her.

So she started playing my game as well, again bringing the brother. I appreciated her as a new player since she seemed to get along with my regs, never made trouble, RSVP’d and showed up on time, and would stay most of the night. Sometimes she’d bring some extra food for the game, too. She continued to play tight, becoming a modest winner overall. She wasn’t especially “good for the game” in the sense that she didn’t splash around much. But she’d top off/rebuy as needed, and made it one less seat I needed to worry about filling.

So far, so good...
 
SECOND ACT — Part II

Early this fall, Sally started inquiring about my chips, table, etc., saying that she was really impressed with my setup and thinking about hosting a game of her own someday.

I explained to her how I’d assembled a custom Paulson set, and showed her my (fairly extensive) sample sets. I offered to send her some links to sales here, Apache offerings, etc., depending on her chip budget. She eventually indicated that her brother was going to try to build a couple of tables.

Meanwhile, the host/dealer friend who had suggested that I invite Sally confided that he was advising her on a game she hoped to launch soonish. He said he was going to be one of her dealers, and also a small partner in the game for helping her to get it going, advising her on hosting, making sure everything is on the up and up, helping with rulings, etc. I learned that the game would be raked ($1 per $10 up to $10), and that she was scheduling it on a night when there are no other (known) games to avoid conflicts with other games.

Having already heard directly from Sally that she was contemplating hosting, and having tried to help her select chips, I was excited for the prospect of a new, well-run game on a night where I would probably be able to play regularly. The location was a bit farther than I wanted to travel, but that also meant that we were not likely to compete much for players/action.

Meanwhile, Sally continued to be very regular in my game, the other host/dealer friend’s game, and others I play in. Word was spreading about her planning to host.

Sally asked me politely if she could get contact info for some of my players who lived a bit closer to me, and given the positive experience getting to know her as a player, I was happy to help. Before doing so, I let me regs know at my game that Sally was going to be hosting and that they should check it out if interested.
 
Last edited:
ALMOST GAME TIME — Part III

It’s only a few days before Sally’s big launch. She sent me pics of the chips she opted for, which were kind of disappointing after all the advice I’d given her (injection molds with fairly bland custom labels), but she said that was all that was in her budget. Someday, she said, she’d still like to get Paulsons.

I reserved for the game. Meanwhile, she RSVP’d as usual for my game just a couple of days after hers. She told me that reservations for her launch were coming in fast, and she expected to have two tables of 1/3 going from the get-go.

The day before Sally’s game was to launch, I get a message from the host/friend who had encouraged me to invite her to my game. In addition to all the planning and advice he had provided, he had also turned over a ton of contacts to her.

But he reported that had just heard from Sally via text that she had reconsidered their partnership, and wanted to run the game on her own. She also said that in light of this decision, she didn’t want him to deal, as that would be awkward.

I said how surprised and disappointed I was, and that it seemed like a really underhanded move to get all his advice about hosting, game structure, player contacts, etc. My own willingness to give her some tips and share a few contacts was based in part on my own experience playing with her, but bolstered by the knowledge that the friend was involved.

I told him I would cancel my reservation and disinvite her from my game. He urged me instead to go to the game and see what it was like. Which I did...
 
Last edited:
THE GAME — Part IV

I arrive at the address for the game, which is in a very suburban neighborhood. There are tons of cars parked near the short driveway, and think to myself “Hmm, I bet the neighbors are going to love this.”

I spot a guy I vaguely recognize from the local casino ringing the doorbell, and trying to text someone on his phone. He says no one is answering the door.

I dimly remember Sally said the game was going to be in an outbuilding behind the house, so we walk down the driveway... past a chainlink dog enclosure on the neighboring house. Three large dogs go crazy barking and throwing themselves against the fence as we pass. I see a back door to the house plus a side door to the house’s garage, and try that first.

The garage is small, with paper-thin walls, just enough room for two tables, a large beverage fridge, and an empty side table, presumably for some future food. (Sally had indicated that she would be cooking.)

One of the two tables is unfinished. The felt is on, but the rail foam is exposed with vinyl hanging around the sides. There are lots of conference-style upholstered chairs around the two tables, many of them with plastic still on them.

Sally’s brother is in the process of taking the plastic off the chairs, and I notice the smell of offgassing commercial furniture... They prove comfortable, but don’t swivel or have casters, and seem a bit big for the cramped room and the intended purpose.

The one completed table does seem quite nice, with speed cloth and an LED lightstrip under the rail. No cupholders or phone chargers, but a good job overall.

There are no TVs, though my host/dealer friend had apparently strongly advised that she have sports on. The lighting is harsh; just two hanging fixtures with bare fluorescent tube lights.

I recognize one of the dealers, one who I have sat with before who I think is very good, and another who is well-known as the worst dealer at the closest local casino. (I learn later that the latter was a last-minute recruit after Sally axed her partnership with my host/dealer friend.)

The first table is almost full, and I buy in from Sally and take my seat. The players who have arrived are almost all guys I recognize from other home or private games in my area. About half of them are game hosts themselves, so I assume they are there to (a) check it out and (b) reciprocate for Sally playing at their places.

Other players start streaming in, but no one wants to sit at the unfinished table with the exposed foam and vinyl waiting to be finished.

Two guys (another host, and a local casino reg) arrive about 15 minutes after the game goes off, and seem highly annoyed that they have to wait for seats. Apparently Sally had told them that they had “locked up” seats with their RSVPs, but she filled their spots already. They leave after about 20 minutes of waiting, without ever playing.

Others continue to arrive—the garage is getting packed—and stand around waiting as well.

Sally is only in the room about 30% of the time, constantly running back and forth to the house to check on whatever she is cooking, and to fetch drinks for people, as the beverage fridge apparently is not yet stocked for some reason. Her repeated absence adds to the sense of confusion. Her brother is sometimes taking the buy-ins or rebuys, and I notice him putting the cash in his pocket. I later learn that this is not Sally’s house/garage, but the brother’s, which he closed on just a couple of weeks prior. So presumably he is a partner, too.

A guy who is a reg in a game nearby announces after less than an hour that he will sell his stack for $500 to someone else who wants his seat. He’d bought in for $500 and is down about $25. One of the many players waiting buys it, another familiar face from the same game.

Yet another guy who hosts a splashy Sunday game (where I don’t play, because his past games have been raided and there have been allegations of other funny business) seems eager to leave as well and rapidly donks off his $400 stack them quickly exits, saying he “may” come back later. (He doesn’t.)

The one player from my game who has shown up takes his spot—call him Duke.

The cast of characters continues to change rapidly, as it seems a lot of people came just to check it out and don’t much want to stay. By contrast, in my homegame and others in the region, it’s rare for anyone to leave in less than 3-4 hours, and many stay a lot longer.

Another host, whose game I haven't played in but I know by reputation, shows up. He seems to know many of the players, and seems to be there in part out of courtesy but possibly also to see who Sally has recruited from his game…

Others continue to arrive, and Sally announces she wants to squeeze in a 10th chair (plus the dealer) to alleviate the wait list.

Duke—my reg mentioned above—says he really doesn’t want to play 10-handed. Rather than telling the player who was going to come in to wait a bit more, she insists and Duke says “That’s fine, but cash me out.” Erp.
 
Last edited:
THE GAME, CT’D — Part V

The action in the game is a lot nittier/ABC than most I’ve attended in the region. A few of the players have bought in quite short, so even when they shove the pots stay relatively modest. The cast of other hosts from games where Sally plays also seem to be fairly tight.

I’m doing OK, up and down, get felted once on my initial $400 buy-in, rebuy for another $400, and work it back up so I’m about even.

Sally reappears periodically with various trays of food. Most of it is nothing I can eat, for dietary reasons, but the other players seem OK with it. The guy to my right (a bad player known for hitting and running) scarfs down at least five plates of food in the space of a few hours. The main problem with the food is that it keeps Sally leaving and coming back and leaving again, so only her brother and the dealers are left to monitor the game, handle buyins, the waitlist, etc.

The one dealer is very good as usual, but the other as expected is a disaster. Many misdeals, which make her huffy when people call the problems out. One of the players who has sat down is a dealer at the local casino, and seems to enjoy needling her mistakes.

At the end of one of her downs, the bad dealer realizes that she used the wrong tip box, so her tips got mingled with the good dealer’s.

There are supposed to be bomb pots every hour, but these don’t seem to be happening, until some players ask about it. Then the dealers don’t seem to have been told what type of bomb pots they’re supposed to do, so this leads to a debate among the players. Sally is again out of the garage so the players effectively decide on double board PLO for the bomb pots with $10 antes.

Eventually, I catch Sally during one of her sporadic appearances in the garage, and tell her (truthfully!) that I have to attend a friend’s burial in the morning, and so am not going to stay too late. I cash out after a little more than four hours, back to about even. By this point there are still a couple of people waiting to get into the game, while others have given up and left rather than agree to play on the half-built second table.
 
Last edited:
All of this is the main reason I started hosting again a couple of years ago after a hiatus. I don’t think there’s as many good hosts out there as people think. And reputations and standing in my game is what’s on the line when someone vouches for someone and also why we call them “auditions.”

Nice to reciprocate but what a disaster in the making.

Ken (merkong) 500+ Sessions Spread
Owner/Operator/Founder:
*The Godfather Club MN (The Venue)
*The Executive Game, (The Current Game)
*Frogtown Card Club, St. Paul (Retired Venue)
*The Poker Family (Our Philosophy)

The Godfather Club - Minnesota | Poker Chip Forum
 
AFTERMATH — Part VI

As I’m cashing out, I engage Sally in conversation. Since she had reserved for my game before cutting my dealer friend out of their arrangement, I play dumb and say, “Thanks for having me, see ya at my game on [a couple of nights later].”

She nods and says yes, and then I pop the question: “Hey, what happened to [my dealer friend]? I thought he was going to be here.”

She looks uncomfortable and says quickly “Oh let’s talk about that tomorrow.”

The next day I get a long text message from Sally which does not say anything about our missing friend.

Instead it says (a) thanks for coming to my game, (b) I’m planning on making a lot of changes and upgrades to the next game, this was just a start, and (c) cancels her RSVP to my game, claiming that something came up.

She has never canceled before, but she knows that she would see my dealer friend who she screwed over a my game.

I did not reply, but she did send me her invite for the next game, indicating that she will be ordering in from a chain restaurant next time. So at least Sally learned that cooking was not feasible. She also indicates some changes to the game format and an added promotion, though the specifics are not given.

I have since heard that the better of her two dealers is not going to be available for her next game, and that she is having trouble getting enough reservations. My guess is that it may not get off, or may be short-handed at best.

I gather that Duke does not plan to return, and that several of the people who thought they had seats locked up but were made to wait were pissed.

There are a ton of lessons to be learned here for first-time hosts as far as what not to do, which I may discuss in follow-up posts, but I think most of them are self-evident...
 
One thing which I am still unsure of is whether the brother trailing Sally to my game and others was really because of a concerned husband, or if he was there to be a second set of eyes gathering intel and ideas for their game in *his* garage.

The shame of all this is that it makes me less likely to trust new players and hosts. For a good 4-5 months, Sally put on a pretty good show of being a solid reg and reliable, socially-thoughtful person. I’m left feeling like it was all just a ruse to skim from other successful games.
 
Lesson one…

Grow your game and for it to grow it has to start modest. New hosts are unable to recognize let alone admit to not knowing what they don’t know. Does their space work, does their setup work, what’s feasible and what’s realistic.

I’m sure someone got shorted or worse.
 
Grow your game and for it to grow it has to start modest. New hosts are unable to recognize let alone admit to not knowing what they don’t know. Does their space work, does their setup work, what’s feasible and what’s realistic.

If I were Sally, I would:

(a) Don’t start hosting until you’re really ready. First impressions are lasting.

(b) Have a couple of soft launches or dry runs before you mass-invite every player you’ve ever sat with at every home/private game in the region.

(c) Realize that in a non-metro region, word gets around, and the player pool is capped. If you annoy, alienate or even shaft people, people are going to hear about it.

(d) Details matter. If you are planning on having TVs, get at least one up for the first game. Make sure you have solid dealers for the first game. Have the plastic off the chairs and both of your tables finished if you’re trying to get two tables going. Et cetera, et cetera and so forth.
 
Dang this sounds so familiar. Every time I feel like I’m done hosting, I hear these kinds of stories or I go to a game with garbage chips, garbage cards, garbage chairs, garbage table, garbage dealers, garbage food, garbage (or no) TV’s, in a garbage spot with garbage (or no) security…raking $50-$100 a hand…

Plus I love hosting, so there’s that lol

But yeah, people vastly underestimate what it takes to be a great host. Plus having several years in the scene and a great reputation helps immensely as well…

And then obviously not being greedy and being willing to reinvest in the game…

It’s relatively thankless, and people generally only comment if they’re complaining, but so satisfying to run a good, well-oiled game :)
 
What is the benefit of these raked private games when casino games are available? Seems like a lot of risk without much upside. Are the casinos in your area terrible?

The other thing is that the closest casino is fairly new (7 years old). Before that there was nothing closer than ~3 hours. So a whole culture had developed over decades of private/home games and firehouse/VFW tourneys. The casino took a bit of a bite out of these initially, but many of the non-casino games just kept going.
 
Ya but better or worse than Sally's game?

Sally’s is worse, at least unless she learns from her mistakes, upgrades her game and makes some amends. But many of the private games are on par with or nicer than the casino poker room’s offerings. Action has died down at the casino considerably since the launch (with a better manager than they have now). They have had to boost rake and lessen promotions.
 
Lesson one: Don’t rake it. Make sure tips cover the food. End of story. If you need to. E compensated for your efforts you’re in the wrong endeavor.

My crew doesn’t want to pay for my Paulsons. They love my rotation of chips, all the setups, my tables, the atmosphere but that’s on me.

I’ll never rake a game.
 
Action has died down at the casino considerably since the launch (with a better manager than they have now). They have had to boost rake and lessen promotions.
Alarm Siren GIF

@Anthony Martino! There is a poker room in need of better management!
 
Lesson one: Don’t rake it. Make sure tips cover the food. End of story. If you need to. E compensated for your efforts you’re in the wrong endeavor.

My crew doesn’t want to pay for my Paulsons. They love my rotation of chips, all the setups, my tables, the atmosphere but that’s on me.

I’ll never rake a game.
I agree if we’re talking about friendly games. But much like OP, we didn’t have a casino for years so a whole subculture of underground games was born. And with bigger games, better food, safer spots, increased security, etc that all costs. Plus all the security and anonymity that private games offer bring bigger whales, at least in our corner of the world.

So I agree raked games aren’t for everyone, every time. But I strongly disagree with people who speak out against them as if they don’t provide a niche service in a community like ours
 
Last edited:
Making the dealers pay for the food seems like the worst of both worlds. IDGI… Unless you mean that host is the dealer?
No, no… At our game I’m the host and ironically enough it’s a dedicated dealer game in which I pitch with occasional relief from my banker who sits opposite of me at the center on the drawer.

They come into my space, play with my equipment, and I provide and prepare the food. Players tip throughout and at the end of the night. They always cover my food expenses and anything else is just a bonus. They love what I provide. Check out my thread and I think you’ll agree that GFC is “the place to be.”

The Godfather Club - Minnesota | Poker Chip Forum
 
So I agree raked games aren’t for everyone, every time. But I strongly disagree with people who speak out against them as if they don’t provide a niche service in a community like ours
Oh I’m sure they do fill a niche. Just seems a little rouge. I wouldn’t trash on them but I also wouldn’t play in one being a host and all.

I’d spend my time being critical of their game as compared to mine especially since mine is unraked.
 
Not really quite sure what to make of this. It seems like a strange mix of real home games and underground rooms, but where the dividing lines are is murky.

From the point of view as a business venture:

Good for villain to be doing research before opening. Checking out the competitors, chatting with the other proprietors and gather customer contacts is a solid start. Sally gets props for making the effort. But it was a halfhearted effort at best. Just guessing - I think the non-playing brother is either an investor or business partner.

Bad job of executing. Likely disastrously undercapitalized. Running a small business is hard work, even a poker room. At least she didn't deal and also cook. Maybe she would play to keep a table running. Home cooking rather than managing the business is a terrible idea. Homemade tables? Not finished?? I bet she doesn't even know what the floor does - it didn't seem like she had someone in this role.

I wouldn't call this "slippery" though. Sally made her intentions clear. She pretty muchly followed through aside from the deal with OP's fellow host being a dealer. Not having details, I can't say if that was or wasn't ok. Unwritten deals are always prone to misunderstandings.

I can't figure out why any other host is giving their contact list / customer list to a competitor. Why would anyone do that?

From the point of view as a true home game:

Good on Sally for doing some homework. She seemed pretty honorable and made all her intentions known up front. It was a bad idea to kick off before she was ready. Hopefully she will learn from her mistakes. I have been there before - thinking I knew what I was doing from hosting a couple of tables and trying to run a hundred player tournament. Still, Sally deserved credit for trying to make home cooked food vs takeout fast food.

I will assume the rake pays expenses like food and dedicated dealers. i.e. its modest. Sally isn't trying to pay the mortgage.

Still don't know why the other hosts gave over their contact list. In a rural setting, the player pool is thin. Adding an extra game seems like it could easily thin out everyone's games. And there is always a chance Sally will decide she likes "your" night better and starts a direct competition.
 
Agreed. I host weekly and sometimes twice a week hence the “cover the food guys.”
View attachment 1426135
Yeah, when I host for friends and family, I 100% agree with you.

But when, uh, my “friend” hosts bigger, more serious games where a rake is taken, it’s a very different beast with very different expectations for both players, staff, and host.
 
Last edited:
Still don't know why the other hosts gave over their contact list. In a rural setting, the player pool is thin. Adding an extra game seems like it could easily thin out everyone's games. And there is always a chance Sally will decide she likes "your" night better and starts a direct competition.

I don’t really look at it that way.

I want there to be more games—more good games—in my area.

While there always are a fair number of home/private games around, very few qualify as good.

And even fewer that last more than 6-18 months, let alone more than a decade.

The better hosts eventually get to know each other. There are several I talk with regularly about hosting, and we play in each others’ games. I have recommended players to them and vice-versa. Overall that helps us all; it isn’t a problem as far as competition.

An analogy: The “big” town nearby (basically just one long Main Street of businesses) used to have only a couple decent restaurants. When a third one opened, an owner of one of the existing restaurants freaked out, thinking it would kill her business. She would even drop by the new place to give any of “her” customers the evil eye.

But it proved to have the opposite effect—more good options made the town more of a food destination for more customers. Now there are a dozen restaurants thriving there.

By contrast, a bad game whose host is underhanded or insincere about collaborating or just incompetent isn’t good for the poker ecosystem.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom