Spotting cheats: Working list of methods (3 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

I’ve been getting together occasionally with several other hosts of home and private games. When we’re not griping about players getting food on the felt or buying in with small bills, we sometimes swap stories of the various angles and outright cheating methods we’ve observed over the years.

So I figured it might be useful and interesting to try to make a master list of these... With hope, others may chime in about variations on these methods, or other ways not listed, to help other host prevent chicanery in their games.

Most of these are related to self-dealt games, which is why I’ve put this in the Home Games section. But some could still be used in casinos or private games with dealers.

Some of these methods are surprisingly crude, others fairly subtle. Detecting even the cruder methods still requires close observation. And since it can be so hard to prove allegations, once a possible cheat has been identified it is often useful to have more than one person observe their mechanics and behavior over several sessions.

Working list of methods below; I’ll try to flesh each out in a comment, not necessarily in order:

* Bottom-dealing​

* Premature burns​

* Pot shaping ​

* Three-card Monte​

* Stacking decks​

* Fake cuts / shuffles ​

* Peeking​

* Signaling​

* Partnering / undeclared profit sharing​

* Seating shenanigans ​

* Crooked dealers / hosts​

* Marked decks​

 

[dpeks13]

what's pot shaping?

 

[Highli99]

Vibrating butt plugs signaled by people in the control room of a live-streamed game who have access to rfid card info

 

[Taghkanic]

* Three Card Monte

I’ll start with the crudest method I’ve ever heard about, from a social club tournament host... This one seems so basic it surprised me that anyone could get away with it. But a tournament host told me an older player got away with this for multiple games before anyone noticed.

The player would profess to have trouble dealing due to his arthritis, and tended to deal very slowly and clumsily. Meanwhile he was very bossy about players pushing any mucked hands to him.

Once the impatient table finally got their cards and started to look at them and act, he would sneakily give himself a third card. I believe he would either sneak an extra in on the second trip around in the deal, or even drop an extra during the hand.

Then at some point he would slip the card he didn't want to keep into the muck which he'd gathered close to his own hand. He would keep two hands over his cards to minimize the chance of detection, and profess to being bad at dealing and having just made a mistake if anyone noticed ("the cards were stuck together, etc.)

Insisting that the burns and discards be kept separate and in plain view at a decent distance from the dealer can help prevent this.

 

[Highli99]

“Deckmate 2”

 

[Taghkanic]

what's pot shaping?

Pot shaping is a term I only learned recently, referring to a player either adding chips to his bet or sneaking chips away during the hand.

 

[Taghkanic]

* Premature burns

In a self-dealt game, this involves putting out the burn early for any given street, then finding some way to peek at the next card to come without being noticed.

A cash game host described to me how a player would burn early, then pretend to be looking at his cards. He would hunch over a lot, and bring both arms around his cards, with the deck close by them. By carefully positioning his body and hands, he would make it look like he was peeling his cards back to check them, but would instead peel back the top card on the deck to preview what was coming.

 

[Taghkanic]

* Signaling

This one involves two partners finding either verbal or physical ways to convey to each other what they are holding or how strong their hands are. This allows them to make better decisions throughout the hand, and/or use each others’ involvement in a hand to bloat the pot when one of them has a very strong hand.

A semi-reg in my game once brought two guests with him who the group felt afterwards were verbally signaling each other. They both seemed to have weird verbal tics, incessantly talking about each street as it came out. This was a good decade or so ago, but as I recall they would do things like comment “nice flop” or “nice, nice” or “very nice,” or “verry very nice” or “really nice” and the like. The supposition after the fact was that the various terms and repetitions conveyed some sort of info about the hand to the other guy.

I did not invite them back due to the group’s concerns, and much later learned that one of these guys had done several stints in jail and was known around the area as a card cheat. (The semi-reg also got a talking to about bringing shady guests.)

I’ve heard about physical versions of signaling involving showing different numbers of fingers when protecting one’s cars, positioning of a card capper, etc., but have never noticed these myself.

 

[Taghkanic]

(Will continue later but feel free to add your own)

 

[merkong]

Premature burns

In a self-dealt game, this involves putting out the burn early for any given street, then finding some way to peek at the next card to come without being noticed.

A cash game host described to me how a player would burn early, then pretend to be looking at his cards. He would hunch over a lot, and bring both arms around his cards, with the deck close by them. By carefully positioning his body and hands, he would make it look like he was peeling his cards back to check them, but would instead peel back the top card on the deck to preview what was coming.

My game is dedicated deal but a couple of years ago a player busted out but wanted to stay and I thought “ok, deal for us I’ll take a much needed break.” That was his style of dealing; he’d run the whole frigging board.” That lasted like one hand.

I’ve been dabbling with the concept of guest dealers to give myself a break and an adamant about technique. No muck gathered until the hand is finished and then, of course, none of that run streets in advance crap.

 

[DuckFat]

Pot shaping is a term I only learned recently, referring to a player either adding chips to his bet or sneaking chips away during the hand.

I don't see how this could be successful. Sloppy table and everyone doesn't pay attention?

 

[Joe Harris]

I don't see how this could be successful. Sloppy table and everyone doesn't pay attention?

I've seen this happen. In fact, the only kind of cheating I've personally seen in person.

The setting for this game was as you suggest..a sloppy table. Lot of intoxicants at the table (mostly weed), a few gregarious people taking a lot of the table's attention, and some very casual dealers (who wouldn't pile up the pots, etc).

Invited a guy who's game I had played occasionally. I didn't see it the first night he played, but during the second game I noticed he would put his blinds in very close to the betting line, and then occasionally sneak them back into his stack if he folded. I couldn't fucking believe it.

I don't understand why someone would take a chance on stealing quarters out of the pot. Guess some folks are just shitheels. Never invited him back or played his game again. Didn't call him out that night because one of the other players would have reacted extremely poorly.

 

[DuckFat]

Sleight of Hand or Palming

Basically like a magic trick, concealing card(s) in their hand, switching preferable ones in and out. Trickier to sneak a card off the table, much easier if you allow players to shuffle. I've seen a video of this at a home game.

I also heard of people suspected of sneaking in extra cards, obviously they need to have the same card design for this to work. It was discovered someone did it when two Ks showed up on a flop. But I also heard of this happening to a host who is known to be cheap with cards (washes cards, throws away bent cards but keeps the rest to replace bent cards in other decks) which is the danger in re-using and frankensteining decks.

 

[EastCoastCali]

I admire people’s patience. If I caught that shit here or even elsewhere, I’d be off like a fuckin air horn. Idc if it’s even just quarters, couple of deals and a nudge to a neighbor to keep an eye to confirm and I’d be off the fuckin rails. Pisses me off just to think about.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't see how this could be successful. Sloppy table and everyone doesn't pay attention?

It is apparently a common form of cheating. Players really often don't pay attention.

This page refers to it by another term, "past posting":

https://www.pokerbankrollapp.com/How-to-Spot-and-Protect-Yourself-from-Cheaters-in-Live-Poker/

 

[merkong]

Pot Shaping

You want the pot spread, you ask me and I’ll spread the pot. It’s not because I don’t trust you, someone else might not like it. I’ve only had to mention it a few times in this run of 125 games but people know. And I’ll mention it in a heartbeat if someone does it. Stay out of the pot. Even my banker does the “fan your hands thing (as do I) if we make change for someone who calls with a bigger chip and after we push a pot to someone. And he’s my son in law.

Oh, and if you think you’re going to get cute and splash the pot? It’s not that it’s messy and obviously shitty poker, we want to know you grabbed the right amount of chips. There’s a betting line. One micrometer over the line will do. The guy that got booted almost two years ago for palming a $5 from a pot as he pushed it to my son in law of all people would splash and he got told twice. The first time was a courtesy, the second time he knew. Don’t do it.

BTW I corrected the swiped $5 in real time and he was gone by way of a sit down the next morning. Clipped as we say at The Godfather Club. Not even a second thought. And he helped build my table and was an OG in The Executive Game. Even if he had been part of the Poker Family back at the Frogtown Card Club (400 sessions) he’d have been screwed. FAFO.

There you have it.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

* Signaling

This one involves two partners finding either verbal or physical ways to convey to each other what they are holding or how strong their hands are. This allows them to make better decisions throughout the hand, and/or use each others’ involvement in a hand to bloat the pot when one of them has a very strong hand.

A semi-reg in my game once brought two guests with him who the group felt afterwards were verbally signaling each other. They both seemed to have weird verbal tics, incessantly talking about each street as it came out. This was a good decade or so ago, but as I recall they would do things like comment “nice flop” or “nice, nice” or “very nice,” or “verry very nice” or “really nice” and the like. The supposition after the fact was that the various terms and repetitions conveyed some sort of info about the hand to the other guy.

I did not invite them back due to the group’s concerns, and much later learned that one of these guys had done several stints in jail and was known around the area as a card cheat. (The semi-reg also got a talking to about bringing shady guests.)

I’ve heard about physical versions of signaling involving showing different numbers of fingers when protecting one’s cars, positioning of a card capper, etc., but have never noticed these myself.

One of my friends told me about someone who had a method of signaling with his buddy. The amount of chips capped over the card told you the suit, and the position on the card told you the pip, or something to that affect.

 

[merkong]

One of my friends told me about someone who had a method of signaling with his buddy. The amount of chips capped over the card told you the suit, and the position on the card told you the pip, or something to that affect.

And that’s why if someone gets an audition at TGC the person bringing them in had better goddamn well know that they’re putting they’re standing in the game on the absolute line.

We do lots of auditions. Well maybe not lots but a couple a month. My Rolodex is deep and if people don’t know it they’re not listening to me brag about it. There’s at least a couple of players each week that don’t get to the table because your seat is yours “to choose or refuse” for the next session.

I have a body count big enough to table a game and have a play in game. I’d be lying though. Once you’re clipped you’re dead to me.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I don't see how this could be successful. Sloppy table and everyone doesn't pay attention?

So many of these I could see easily happen, this one super simply.

On any given night, probably several times an hour there’s the odd $1 or $5 or frac chilling somewhere after a hand. It’s not quite close to where the pot was, not quite close enough to someone’s stack, always followed by a “whose is this?”

Not everyone pushes their previous bets forward into the pot, often times the middles seats aren’t helping move cards and pots, etc. The tables a mess, even more so if there’s a racetrack involved. So just on accident there’s random chips going random directions that people have no clue about, imagine if someone was actually trying to cheat!

I have extremely limited time at a casino, but playing a bit in professional environments have made me realize how strange this all is, as it never happens there.

 

[jpietrella]

Pot Shaping

You want the pot spread, you ask me and I’ll spread the pot. It’s not because I don’t trust you, someone else might not like it. I’ve only had to mention it a few times in this run of 125 games but people know. And I’ll mention it in a heartbeat if someone does it. Stay out of the pot. Even my banker does the “fan your hands thing (as do I) if we make change for someone who calls with a bigger chip and after we push a pot to someone. And he’s my son in law.

Oh, and if you think you’re going to get cute and splash the pot? It’s not that it’s messy and obviously shitty poker, we want to know you grabbed the right amount of chips. There’s a betting line. One micrometer over the line will do. The guy that got booted almost two years ago for palming a $5 from a pot as he pushed it to my son in law of all people would splash and he got told twice. The first time was a courtesy, the second time he knew. Don’t do it.

BTW I corrected the swiped $5 in real time and he was gone by way of a sit down the next morning. Clipped as we say at The Godfather Club. Not even a second thought. And he helped build my table and was an OG in The Executive Game. Even if he had been part of the Poker Family back at the Frogtown Card Club (400 sessions) he’d have been screwed. FAFO.

There you have it.

OK, I'll say it. W in the actual F?

 

[merkong]

I am # 4 but seriously some players don’t like that kind of stuff, touching chips in the pot but might not feel compelled to say something. Also, who likes a splashed pot. $9.75 after the flop is a handful of chips. Wouldn’t you want to see that the guy actually called it? Lastly, like I said, we get newcomers fairly regularly so instead of marginalizing them might they want to speak up or pull something because the game looks yokel, we make sure the game is run right.

No worries. It ain’t Munich and nobody complains about having etiquette and decorum.

 

[merkong]

OK, I'll say it. W in the actual F?

I’m not even actually sure what you’re contesting here. But no worries. Half the stuff the OP lists and proceeds to outline would be a non issue if game managers expected certain behavior. Am I right?

 

[BarrieJ3]

 

[merkong]

She is but her games legit

 

[Taghkanic]

This one wasn't on my initial list, but last week I was playing a casino tournament with a guy who is a regular there. He knows the rules.

He was constantly "forgetting" to put in his big blind ante or his big blind. He'd push half of it to the dealer, so they thought he was in, but then not post the other half in front of him.

Because this was a bigger event than they usually host, the casino was using a lot of inexperienced dealers. Lots of blackjack and craps dealers. Many of them seemed very unsure of themselves so it fell to the players to call this guy out.

Each time he got called out the cheat feigned confusion or claimed he *had* posted both, forcing a count of the pot and many delays. At one point I had to call the floor.

I eventually got moved from his table, but hours later we were back on the same one -- and he was still trying this angle whenever possible.

 

[Taghkanic]

* Bottom-dealing

This one is pretty self-explanatory. In a self-dealt game (or one where a house dealer is colluding with a player), the dealer moves certain cards to the bottom of the deck, so as to be able to pitch them to a player of their choice, and/or to shape the board. Typically high value cards, but I suppose they could do the opposite (move low value cards to the bottom and pitch them to opponents).

 

[Taghkanic]

* Stacking decks

I don't know that I've ever sat in a game where some had truly stacked a deck, or cold-decked me, though I've seen deals which were so improbable that one couldn't help but be suspicious.

A truly stacked deck is one where the order of the cards is perfectly arranged to lead to wild action.

Usually this would be done to favor a single player. But a crooked house in a heavily-raked game could also have an interest in just generating bigger action: bigger pots, more rake, more rebuys.

A "cold deck" as I understand it is a stacked deck which has been arranged off the table, then switched in to the rotation.

A more insidious and I think common form of this is less precise, where a dealer only is able to move some cards to the top or bottom of the deck. The dealer may not be able to be sure exactly how it will play out (e.g. due to the cut) but s/he has valuable knowledge of whether those high value cards may be in play or not.

For example, if in a self-dealt game the shuffler has moved all the aces to the top of the deck, and he sees that this gets a shallow cut, he can be reasonably sure that no aces will be in play for that hand.

An even subtler version is when the person does a "side shuffle" where they can see cards as they halfassedly sift cards held sideways (perpendicular to the table). This can be used to move cards around, or just to preview where various cards are in the deck. A skilled player can gain an edge even just knowing where a few cards are in the deck, if any rank or suit.

 

[Taghkanic]

* Fake cuts / shuffles

I've seen some videos -- for example Sean Deeb this year posted one of a cheating casino dealer which got a lot of attention -- of sleight-of-hand where the dealer appears to be shuffling a stacked deck, but in fact the cards never change position.

(Just search YouTube and you'll see tons of examples).

Related to this is the fake cut or non-cut. I played with a cheater in a self-dealt game where it was shuffled behind. He would preview and move cards around in the deck, and then try to find a way to avoid the player to his left cutting -- such as handing the deck directly to the next dealer, or saying that a cut isn't really necessary because "it's still all random."

 

[MeridianFC]

Pot shaping is a term I only learned recently, referring to a player either adding chips to his bet or sneaking chips away during the hand.

Sounds like what I've heard called "past posting" (adding to bet after action) or "shorting" (taking from after)

 

[MeridianFC]

BTW Marked Deck should be on the list. Either pre-marked (daubs on the back art, special ink visible with proper glasses or technology, or crimps/cuts made during play.