Spotting cheats: Working list of methods (30 Viewers)

[Jimulacrum]

Here's one that's unique to dealer's choice games:

Rule Shorting

This happens when the person calling the game attempts to gain information before establishing all the rules.

For example, someone begins dealing a 7 Card Stud variant and takes his time explaining while he deals, such that he doesn't declare it's high-low or doesn't say what the betting limits will be until some or all of the door cards are already visible.

Or someone deals all the hole cards in a flop game and starts peeling his own before he declares whether the game will play by Hold'em or Omaha rules, how many boards there will be, or any other features of the game.

This would also apply to any rules that a player attempts to "clarify" mid-hand, while he's still in the hand.

Obviously a tough one because this kind of thing can happen by honest mistake, which serves as great cover for people who might use it to cheat.

 

[DuckFat]

I'm a tournament guy. Whenever there's a break, and everybody's moving around, I'll always bury my big chips on the bottom of a stack before I leave the table.

I was told by the floor in a WSOP bounty event to bury the bounty chip or take it with you when going on break because it's basically cash. I had mine on the side of my chip stack. There's cameras but they can't catch everything and even if they do there's no guarantee it can be tracked down.

 

[WedgeRock]

Last 'cut' appears to be a pass through cut.

 

[TheJestyr]

Just posted the first video in the series of how to catch cheats at the card table.

Admittedly it was hastily shot and edited, but I was excited to get the ball rolling on this project!

In future episodes I won’t necessarily show “how” to do all these techniques, but what to look for and how to protect yourself

 

[Chipandchair]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849338547297198175

 

[doublebooyah85]

Rings…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849338547297198175

 

[Jimulacrum]

Rings…

https://twitter.com/x/status/1849338547297198175

Reflective surfaces have been a cheating tool for a long time. Usually something small and trivial like a Zippo lighter.

The ring is clever but is abnormally shaped and abnormally reflective for a ring, and it seems to require an awkward dealing posture.

What I'd worry about more in a modern game is cell phones. They fly under the radar in a world where half of people can't go 5 minutes without checking them. People have them out on the table all the time. Go ahead, turn off your cell phone and deal some cards over the blank screen in a well-lit place. Even someone with no cheating acumen could use this to peep hole cards and even upcoming board cards with a little subterfuge.

 

[SetToBean]

Reflective surfaces have been a cheating tool for a long time. Usually something small and trivial like a Zippo lighter.

The ring is clever but is abnormally shaped and abnormally reflective for a ring, and it seems to require an awkward dealing posture.

What I'd worry about more in a modern game is cell phones. They fly under the radar in a world where half of people can't go 5 minutes without checking them. People have them out on the table all the time. Go ahead, turn off your cell phone and deal some cards over the blank screen in a well-lit place. Even someone with no cheating acumen could use this to peep hole cards and even upcoming board cards with a little subterfuge.

Everything points towards the Euro pitch or 1-deck shoes taking over because of common-place vulnerabilities like this for sure.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Everything points towards the Euro pitch or 1-deck shoes taking over because of common-place vulnerabilities like this for sure.

You're talking more about casino games. In self-dealt home games, I feel this will always be a vulnerability outside of the rare cases of hosts who take a hard line on devices at the table.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a device-free game, casino or otherwise, and I'd bet there are enough others out there like me that it could be a thing if given a try.

 

[SetToBean]

You're talking more about casino games. In self-dealt home games, I feel this will always be a vulnerability outside of the rare cases of hosts who take a hard line on devices at the table.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a device-free game, casino or otherwise, and I'd bet there are enough others out there like me that it could be a thing if given a try.

Fair enough - from hosting a game that's always had designated dealers and probably always will, I haven't had much experience with mandating 1-deck shoe usage in a self-dealt games. I did it once for a play-money social event and it was indeed a disaster that quickly reverted to people's preferred method, I think due to people being unfamiliar with it.

I can see presenting it as an option for players - table device-free and pitch, or devices + Euro pitch/shoe, if the phone use concern becomes that serious.

 

[SetToBean]

On shoes, I've seen this contraption recently. A bit overkill but I like the effort to optimise the concept.

Still no separate tray for cutting like the Star Group's custom shoes though

 

[erdried]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on peeking. I have a few guys I play with regularly. They are the type that stack their chips in the center of their space and then look at their cards out in front of their stack versus chips on one side so you can have your cards on the other side and closer to you when you look at them. They also don't shield the cards much when they look at them. We play for meaningful stakes and I've told them numerous times over the years that people sitting on your left and right can see your cards. And I've threatened, I'm not gonna look away if you continue! Though I haven't followed through of course because its unfair to the rest of the table. But I'm sure others have as you must purposefully look away when they flash them.

I heard a pro in a podcast once say that it's their fault if you see their cards, that's the easiest and most important thing to protect. Thoughts?

 

[SetToBean]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on peeking. I have a few guys I play with regularly. They are the type that stack their chips in the center of their space and then look at their cards out in front of their stack versus chips on one side so you can have your cards on the other side and closer to you when you look at them. They also don't shield the cards much when they look at them. We play for meaningful stakes and I've told them numerous times over the years that people sitting on your left and right can see your cards. And I've threatened, I'm not gonna look away if you continue! Though I haven't followed through of course because its unfair to the rest of the table. But I'm sure others have as you must purposefully look away when they flash them.

I heard a pro in a podcast once say that it's their fault if you see their cards, that's the easiest and most important thing to protect. Thoughts?

At my games, which can have a lot of beginners since they're micro-stakes, I've always directly informed people if they flash any portion of the card surface to me and tell people I expect them to do the same if they see a flash (people generally do seem to be eager to speak up, as it's all fun and games and some enjoy needling each other about it).

If people still don't protect their cards after explicit warnings, which hasn't happened yet in my games, the host eventually has to start handing out penalties to the weak peeker to get the message across in a very direct way, probably in the form of timeouts. There's not much else to do to correct the behaviour. Threatening to use the information is not a solution as it means threatening compromising the integrity of the game.

 

[upNdown]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on peeking. I have a few guys I play with regularly. They are the type that stack their chips in the center of their space and then look at their cards out in front of their stack versus chips on one side so you can have your cards on the other side and closer to you when you look at them. They also don't shield the cards much when they look at them. We play for meaningful stakes and I've told them numerous times over the years that people sitting on your left and right can see your cards. And I've threatened, I'm not gonna look away if you continue! Though I haven't followed through of course because its unfair to the rest of the table. But I'm sure others have as you must purposefully look away when they flash them.

I heard a pro in a podcast once say that it's their fault if you see their cards, that's the easiest and most important thing to protect. Thoughts?

The problem with this is you’re cheating the rest of the table.

Even if it’s 100% somebody’s fault for showing you their own cards, you don’t just have a huge advantage over them, you have an advantage over the rest of the table. You have more information than them.
We’ve had threads discussing this issue before, and it’s tough to come to a consensus as the best way to proceed. But I think that if you know another guy’s cards and the rest of the table doesn’t, you’re cheating. That’s why if a card gets exposed and it becomes the burn card, the dealer will show it all around and announce it verbally - everybody is entitled to the same information.

 

[erdried]

whenever I get up from my seat to go to the bathroom I think it’s the biggest/easiest risk of theft/cheating

Same! I always reconfigure my chips into even towers with big chips on bottom just for bathroom breaks so I can easily tell if something is askew when I return. My friend thinks I'm paranoid but always good to take measure to make yourself feel more comfortable.

 

[erdried]

The problem with this is you’re cheating the rest of the table.

Even if it’s 100% somebody’s fault for showing you their own cards, you don’t just have a huge advantage over them, you have an advantage over the rest of the table. You have more information than them.
We’ve had threads discussing this issue before, and it’s tough to come to a consensus as the best way to proceed. But I think that if you know another guy’s cards and the rest of the table doesn’t, you’re cheating. That’s why if a card gets exposed and it becomes the burn card, the dealer will show it all around and announce it verbally - everybody is entitled to the same information.

Yeah, guys to be clear, even though I've threatened my pals, "I'll look if you don't stop flashing!" I never have because, of course, the game becomes compromised. I just really don't understand why the message hasn't registered. Someone would only have to tell me once before I'd be freaked and super mindful about flashing my cards. Surely the average guys at the casino aren't as honest with my clunky friends.

 

[SetToBean]

Yeah, guys to be clear, even though I've threatened my pals, "I'll look if you don't stop flashing!" I never have because, of course, the game becomes compromised. I just really don't understand why the message hasn't registered. Someone would only have to tell me once before I'd be freaked and super mindful about flashing my cards. Surely the average guys at the casino aren't as honest with my clunky friends.

It hasn’t registered because they don’t know better about the impact of the extra information, hence it doesn’t feel like a big deal to them even though it is indeed a big deal. Hence why my choice is warnings then being dealt out for a period as it leaves an unmissable impact on their fun if it has to go that far.

 

[ekricket]

I’m always amazed at how much money I lose when I think I have an “advantage”. It skews your play and limits your thinking.
Makes me think of flashing a card as a reverse tell.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts on peeking. I have a few guys I play with regularly. They are the type that stack their chips in the center of their space and then look at their cards out in front of their stack versus chips on one side so you can have your cards on the other side and closer to you when you look at them. They also don't shield the cards much when they look at them. We play for meaningful stakes and I've told them numerous times over the years that people sitting on your left and right can see your cards. And I've threatened, I'm not gonna look away if you continue! Though I haven't followed through of course because its unfair to the rest of the table. But I'm sure others have as you must purposefully look away when they flash them.

I heard a pro in a podcast once say that it's their fault if you see their cards, that's the easiest and most important thing to protect. Thoughts?

In a friendly game, I will always trying to avoid seeing people's cards when they flash, and let them know to do better (often with just a hand gesture). It's a little unfair to me if it's more than occasional, because avoiding looking in the person's directions can mean missing important information. But whatever, within reason, it's worth it to keep the game fair and civil. Once the person's out of the hand, if I'm still in, I'll let other people know what the flashed cards were.

In a public/casino game, people get the same treatment from me for a few hands. But after multiple warnings and attempts to avert my eyes, I'm not your babysitter anymore. If I see your cards, I see your cards, and I will use the information however I can while you're still in the hand. It sucks because it's unfair, but you know what's worse?

1. Preoccupying myself with repeatedly telling the flasher I can see his cards.
2. Shielding my eyes from his entire side of the table every time he peels his cards.
3. Telling the whole table what I saw (not unfair to me, but makes the flasher's hand unplayable).
4. Playing against other people who have a view of his cards and make no attempt at an ethical solution.
5. Having to switch seats, and now the guy in my old seat sees the cards instead.

If anyone has a better solution, I'm all ears. Like do I tell everyone I saw his cards but not say what they are while he's still in?

 

[Taghkanic]

I would announce to the table what you’ve seen every time (at least if it happens before you fold.) Any sane player will stop flashing cards if they know it is going to be announced. Also then you don’t have to worry about playing with an unfair advantage to others.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I've told them numerous times over the years that people sitting on your left and right can see your cards.

You've done your part.

it's their fault if you see their cards,

Yup!

everybody is entitled to the same information.

Sure, that is true. But I played in a game where one of the players continually exposes cards when dealing by holding the deck a few feet above the table and throwing the cards. After having to re-deal the third time, he got mad at me for calling the exposed cards, and a couple other players seemed more mad at me for slowing the game down than at him for sloppy dealing. In that particular game I now just quietly pay attention and keep my mouth shut.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I would announce to the table what you’ve seen every time (at least if it happens before you fold.) Any sane player will stop flashing cards if they know it is going to be announced. Also then you don’t have to worry about playing with an unfair advantage to others.

Calling out the guy's cards seems like the most unfair option to me.

It takes away two sources of unfair advantage:

• My typically marginal edge over the other players, in the form of knowing slightly more about the deck composition
• My massive edge over the flasher, because knowing even one of his cards (in Hold'em) basically allows me to own him

But it introduces a new source of unfair advantage: all the other players gain the same massive edge I have over him, effectively forcing him out of the hand.

 

[SetToBean]

Calling out the guy's cards seems like the most unfair option to me.

It takes away two sources of unfair advantage:

• My typically marginal edge over the other players, in the form of knowing slightly more about the deck composition
• My massive edge over the flasher, because knowing even one of his cards (in Hold'em) basically allows me to own him

But it introduces a new source of unfair advantage: all the other players gain the same massive edge I have over him, effectively forcing him out of the hand.

Presumably we're still talking about a hypothetical serial flasher, so since the flasher in this situation is fully aware of what's going on after the announcements have started following the Hero making several more subtle attempts to correct them and is in control of that unfair advantage existing at this point I don't see a major problem. At some point the flasher needs to be corrected a bit more directly and that's going to negatively impact them one way or another regardless of the solution used.

 

[upNdown]

My typically marginal edge over the other players, in the form of knowing slightly more about the deck composition

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to find edges there, and it’s never paid off for me. I’ll watch groupings of cards that go into the muck, I’ve paid close attention to shuffles (especially weak ones) and I’ve tried tracking cards through the shuffles and cuts. And this was at cardrooms with one or two horrifically weak shufflers. I never got it to pay off. But that’s probably more of a ME problem.
And all of that is to say that I’m not opposed to finding edges (especially in casinos and cardrooms - I don’t necessarily want to rip off my friends at home games.) But in this discussion, yeah I believe if your neighbor is continually flashing cards, that’s an edge that’s unfair. But no, I don’t have a good solution.

 

[Jimulacrum]

But no, I don’t have a good solution.

This is where I've landed time and time again on this question.

There are situations of dealing irregularities that are similarly shitty, where there's just no way out of it being unfair for someone.

I prefer to just avoid them whenever possible.

Protect your damn hand, people.

 

[ekricket]

3. Telling the whole table what I saw (not unfair to me, but makes the flasher's hand unplayable).

Not an expert but I think there is TDA rule 59 about giving info about live hands

 

[Bronson]

Just posted the first video in the series of how to catch cheats at the card table.

Admittedly it was hastily shot and edited, but I was excited to get the ball rolling on this project!

In future episodes I won’t necessarily show “how” to do all these techniques, but what to look for and how to protect yourself

Yes, if you’re not aware what you supposed to look for you can’t see owt, however this Zarrow shuffle was quite painful to look at.

 

[JustinInMN]

If anyone has a better solution, I'm all ears. Like do I tell everyone I saw his cards but not say what they are while he's still in?

I would announce to the table what you’ve seen every time (at least if it happens before you fold.) Any sane player will stop flashing cards if they know it is going to be announced. Also then you don’t have to worry about playing with an unfair advantage to others.

I think @Taghkanic is 100% on here. This is the only solution, and I don't get how it can be problematic. All players are entitled to a fair chance at all information revealed about a hand. One person cannot benefit from a carless player flashing cards to one player and not other. The obligation is clear, even if it gets annoying and repetitive.

One reason for this that hasn't been discussed, but should be, is that if the player flashing cards is doing so egregiously and repetitively to the benefit of a "hero", sooner or later other players at the table are going notice hero catching a glimpse or his ability to catch a glimpse and call it out. And if hero hasn't taken steps to get ahead of this, by reporting whenever a flash happens, the players may (and somewhat justifiably) lump hero in as a colluder with the careless player, even if nothing has been spoken.

Hero calling this out every time keeps him out of the gray area, and no short term advantage from the glimpses is worth this accusation.

 

[upNdown]

Hero calling this out every time keeps him out of the gray area, and no short term advantage from the glimpses is worth this accusation.

I agree with you completely, in theory. But in reality, in practice, it’s not always that easy. I’ve actually been in this situation where the card flasher was an old guy. I don’t want to ruin some old guy’s day, by continually calling out his inability to play the game correctly. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

So yes, you’re right, but I still say there’s no good solution.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I agree with you completely, in theory. But in reality, in practice, it’s not always that easy. I’ve actually been in this situation where the card flasher was an old guy. I don’t want to ruin some old guy’s day, by continually calling out his inability to play the game correctly. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

So yes, you’re right, but I still say there’s no good solution.

Yeah, out of all the cases I've seen, serial flashers are usually elderly.

Can you imagine doing this to some guy in his 80s who's flashing cards because his manual dexterity is shit?

I think @Taghkanic is 100% on here. [Telling the whole table the flasher's card(s)] is the only solution, and I don't get how it can be problematic.

It's problematic because it renders the person's hand unplayable. I spelled out in a previous reply why this is a much more serious unfairness problem than other players not being able to factor in that the or whatever is out.

One reason for this that hasn't been discussed, but should be, is that if the player flashing cards is doing so egregiously and repetitively to the benefit of a "hero", sooner or later other players at the table are going notice hero catching a glimpse or his ability to catch a glimpse and call it out. And if hero hasn't taken steps to get ahead of this, by reporting whenever a flash happens, the players may (and somewhat justifiably) lump hero in as a colluder with the careless player, even if nothing has been spoken.

This is a whole other problem.

It doesn't apply to Hero here; Hero is neither the flasher nor intentionally colluding with the flasher.

Moreover, my policy is to make the information known as soon as reasonably possible, but not while the person is still in the hand (unless it's just me and him). As a matter of course, I stay ahead of the possibility of being accused of anything by being an honest player that people trust by default. I announce a ton of "everyone should have it" information, typically cards flashed during the deal. That's how I avoid being marked as a cheat.

(Most of the time, anyway. Some folks just can't handle losing gracefully.)

Hero calling this out every time keeps him out of the gray area, and no short term advantage from the glimpses is worth this accusation.

Who's trying to secure a short-term advantage? Flat 0% of my thinking on this has to do with greedily hoarding the fact that the is out for myself. My whole reservation is about nuking the flasher's hand. That's really the only question. Once he's out, I tell everyone I saw the .

As to this accusation, how often is this actually happening? I've clocked a lot of hours playing live poker and have only seen maybe two people ever being accused of anything like this, and even then only after some pretty blatant drunk behavior.

Nuking the flasher's hand every time he flashes is a pretty wicked price to pay to balance our range against this possibility.