Spotting cheats: Working list of methods (20 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

It's problematic because it renders the person's hand unplayable.

The player is rendering his hand unplayable. It’s not the fault of those who see what they opening show, especially once they’ve been warned. If pointing it out creates unfairness, that is self-inflicted.

 

[Taghkanic]

Once he's out, I tell everyone I saw the .

And if he stays in to the river in a multiway pot including you? You get the exclusive benefit of that extra information across four betting rounds and three streets?

 

[BarrieJ3]

It’s really this deep? I get it, I haven’t played that much poker. But I’ve seen this a lot because…I flash my cards constantly.

I’ve only seen one thing ever happen - home games, private games, casinos - a person tells another person “Yo I can see your cards”, occasionally along with a motion of their hand pushing away from them to say keep your cards down/close.

The other thing that happens, but I couldn’t know how much since no one would know, is someone doesn’t say something.

Man, I have no clue how folks navigate life and every day social situations, everything PCF seems so damn difficult.

 

[JustinInMN]

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to find edges there, and it’s never paid off for me. I’ll watch groupings of cards that go into the muck, I’ve paid close attention to shuffles (especially weak ones) and I’ve tried tracking cards through the shuffles and cuts. And this was at cardrooms with one or two horrifically weak shufflers. I never got it to pay off. But that’s probably more of a ME problem.
And all of that is to say that I’m not opposed to finding edges (especially in casinos and cardrooms - I don’t necessarily want to rip off my friends at home games.) But in this discussion, yeah I believe if your neighbor is continually flashing cards, that’s an edge that’s unfair. But no, I don’t have a good solution.

I think a lot of these of these ideas sound better on paper than they are in practice. A lot of opposition I have noticed that are interested in these tactics never seem to have the ability to make it pay off.

 

[Jimulacrum]

The player is rendering his hand unplayable. It’s not the fault of those who see what they opening show, especially once they’ve been warned. If pointing it out creates unfairness, that is self-inflicted.

This is an extremely hard line that I am not willing to take—that basically anyone who exposes a card by mistake should be unable to play the hand.

And if he stays in to the river in a multiway pot including you? You get the exclusive benefit of that extra information across four betting rounds and three streets?

This is the worst possible situation, and it only rarely happens, but the concern is fair. This is why I lean toward announcing that I saw a card but not what it was, once it becomes clear that I'm going to be in a multi-way pot with the flasher and others.

That said, what is knowing that the is out really worth?

In the vast majority of hands, it won't matter. In some hands, it will matter a little bit. Only once in a great while will it matter a lot—and this is assuming you saw the card, and you didn't fold, and the flasher didn't fold, and everyone else didn't fold. What's the EV on that information? Practically nothing, and not even a drop in the bucket compared to the unfairness of nuking a guy's hand every time he flashes a card by mistake.

The reason I've had so much opportunity to think about this is because I play regularly with elderly people who flash cards all the time. I can't imagine nuking their hands over and over again to make a point or try to force them to get better at hiding their cards.

Do you actually act like this IRL or is this just discussion fodder?

 

[Jimulacrum]

I’ve spent a lot of time trying to find edges there, and it’s never paid off for me. I’ll watch groupings of cards that go into the muck, I’ve paid close attention to shuffles (especially weak ones) and I’ve tried tracking cards through the shuffles and cuts. And this was at cardrooms with one or two horrifically weak shufflers. I never got it to pay off. But that’s probably more of a ME problem.
And all of that is to say that I’m not opposed to finding edges (especially in casinos and cardrooms - I don’t necessarily want to rip off my friends at home games.) But in this discussion, yeah I believe if your neighbor is continually flashing cards, that’s an edge that’s unfair. But no, I don’t have a good solution.

Even taking away the ethics question, the value in this is minimal. You probably lose more by distracting yourself with thinking about this than you'd gain by paying more attention to the game and playing fundamentally well.

 

[JustinInMN]

It's problematic because it renders the person's hand unplayable. I spelled out in a previous reply why this is a much more serious unfairness problem than other players not being able to factor in that the or whatever is out.

My whole reservation is about nuking the flasher's hand.

I really don't understand why there is any obligation whatsoever about protecting the flashers hand if he is refusing to do so himself? I saw your post on the alternatives, I don't find any of those reasons compelling to stay quiet, frankly. (Even though I very much agree with the first part of the post.) Every player has a duty to protect their hand, if someone is not doing that, I don't think anyone should care that it gets "nuked" or not.

It doesn't apply to Hero here; Hero is neither the flasher nor intentionally colluding with the flasher.

Moreover, my policy is to make the information known as soon as reasonably possible, but not while the person is still in the hand (unless it's just me and him). As a matter of course, I stay ahead of the possibility of being accused of anything by being an honest player that people trust by default. I announce a ton of "everyone should have it" information, typically cards flashed during the deal. That's how I avoid being marked as a cheat.

Who's trying to secure a short-term advantage? Flat 0% of my thinking on this has to do with greedily hoarding the fact that the is out for myself. My whole reservation is about nuking the flasher's hand. That's really the only question. Once he's out, I tell everyone I saw the .

I do appreciate this. But there's the problem, hero isn't the flasher, and hero of course knows he isn't colluding, but if hero is silent on the topic, and the other players catch that hero is getting a look, it's reasonable from their perspective that they are witnessing collusion.

I do agree to this point, I think the only time immediate call outs are crucial is when hero is live in a pot. If hero is not live, I have no problem with waiting for the end of the hand, and I don't even think hero is obligated to provide specific cards unless the other players press.

Ideally, in a public game setting anyway, if a player has to be warned more than twice, he's just going to get picked up and render this whole argument moot. So I would like to think this argument is more a mental exercise in obligation toward game protection rather than a frequent cardroom issue.

But in reality, in practice, it’s not always that easy. I’ve actually been in this situation where the card flasher was an old guy. I don’t want to ruin some old guy’s day, by continually calling out his inability to play the game correctly. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.

So yes, you’re right, but I still say there’s no good solution.

Maybe I am overboard saying 100% every time is necessary. I think my point is closer to hero still needs to bring it up frequently enough so long as it's an ongoing issue to be sure to distance himself as participating in some sort of angle shoot. Ideally hero points this out and other players realize hero is protecting the game and will add pressure for the player to protect himself or get picked up.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is an extremely hard line that I am not willing to take—that basically anyone who exposes a card by mistake should be unable to play the hand.

I really don't get why this outcome is so tragic. For the vast majority of players who understand the basics of the protecting their hands (mainly, minimize how high you pick your cards up from the table in this case), accidental exposure will be at most like a once in 10,000 hands sort of occurrence. I don't understand feeling any need to bend over backwards to save a hand from someone that refuses to do the basics in this area.

 

[Taghkanic]

This is an extremely hard line that I am not willing to take—that basically anyone who exposes a card by mistake should be unable to play the hand.

You’re introducing a somewhat different case — someone who accidentally flashes a card once, and someone who does it *constantly* and ignores repeated warnings.

With the latter, you can just say “Hey, I think I saw his hand” and let the dealer decide how to handle it.

If you are gaining that info almost every hand, I think it is (a) too massive an advantage to ignore, and (b) so reckless by the other player that the consequences are 100% on them.

Ex.: I once was at a casino table when a guy sat down and just started talking at the top of his lungs nonstop. Big, heavyset guy, manspreading, sunglasses, seemed to think we all couldn’t wait to hear his every thought.

Also at some point he mentioned that he had recently been in jail for drunk driving, which maybe colored my lack of sympathy when he started carelessly showing his cards every hand.

First time I looked away as he started to flash his cards and put my hand out sideways to indicate “hey, you might want to protect those.”

Next time I audibly said, “Hey, I can see your hand.”

Third time (when I had something I wanted to play) I announced before betting that I saw his hand. Dealer told me to say what I saw and for the player to confirm if that was correct.

This continued for a while, but the guy just kept blathering at us and practicing zero hand security. Things never really came to a head because he got stacked very quickly, rebought, got stacked again and left.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. The other problem with waiting until you’re in a hand with the flasher is that your decision on whether to enter the hand will be influenced either way by what you saw.

If you have KsQs and see before you act that he has KK, you fold a hand you probably were going to play... So you have still gained an unfair advantage (and disadvantaged the flasher) even though you didn’t technically “have to” to tell the table what you saw. You saved yourself chips on most runouts… at his expense.

If instead you play the hand without saying you saw his, and then play exploitavely based on the runouts, that is also plainly unfair.

So the only choice is to announce that you saw it.

 

[JustinInMN]

P.S. The other problem with waiting until you’re in a hand with the flasher is that your decision on whether to enter the hand will be influenced either way by what you saw.

If you have KsQs and see before you act that he has KK, you fold a hand you probably were going to play... So you have still gained an unfair advantage (and disadvantaged the flasher) even though you didn’t technically “have to” to tell the table what you saw. You saved yourself chips on most runouts… at his expense.

If instead you play the hand without saying you saw his, and then play exploitavely based on the runouts, that is also plainly unfair.

So the only choice is to announce that you saw it.

True, I think if you have live cards you are obliged to point it out right away. I think it's less clear if you happen to be out of the pot already. That is one instance where I think it's okay not to damage the flashers hand, but still say something at the end.

 

[allforcharity]

I think it gets even further complicated. What if someone misinterprets the flashed card, i.e. someone thought they saw the 8 of clubs, but it was in fact the 8 of spades. Does the misinterpreter have to declare what he saw (even if it's false)? Does the flasher have to confirm it or deny it (if it's true or false, respectively)?

 

[BarrieJ3]

Yeah this can be argued in circles for hours.

Doesn’t the flasher get a say? Idc if you have an advantage over me, don’t give it to the whole table.

Does the flasher have to answer? If you say the wrong card, do I need to confirm? Correct you? What if someone uses this to angle in a big hand? What if there’s a wet or suited board. Maybe I intentionally flash you a club card cause there’s 3 clubs on the board. Now you have to announce that and maybe I planning on bluffing repping the flush.

I’m all for arguing just for fun, devils advocate, etc.

But uh, just let me know you can see my cards and I’ll correct it, k thx byeeeeeeeeeee.

What else can I quickly solve for you?

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah this can be argued in circles for hours.

Doesn’t the flasher get a say? Idc if you have an advantage over me, don’t give it to the whole table.

Does the flasher have to answer? If you say the wrong card, do I need to confirm? Correct you? What if someone uses this to angle in a big hand? What if there’s a wet or suited board. Maybe I intentionally flash you a club card cause there’s 3 clubs on the board. Now you have to announce that and maybe I planning on bluffing repping the flush.

I’m all for arguing just for fun, devils advocate, etc.

But uh, just let me know you can see my cards and I’ll correct it, k thx byeeeeeeeeeee.

View attachment 1440300

What else can I quickly solve for you?

Fwiw, I oppose cutting cards in two pieces to settle a dispute, unless they are Faded Spade.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

While I would always say something in a friendly home game, I can't imagine letting an opponent at a casino know I can see their hole cards.

The dealer should say something sure.

Am I a terrible person?

 

[BarrieJ3]

While I would always say something in a friendly home game, I can't imagine letting an opponent at a casino know I can see their hole cards.

The dealer should say something sure.

Am I a terrible person?

What's the difference? You wouldn't at a home game. What about a home game where you don't know anyone? What about simply an underground or raked home game where the intent is specifically to make money? What if it's your buddy with you at the casino whose cards you see? Where do you draw this line personally?

Additionally, what's the net positive/negative? At a casino, not saying something you get the slight edge that you may not even really be able to exploit for a hand or three? Negative could be a range of things. I suppose if you play poker professionally and your cats are desperate for food, any slight edge needs to be exploited to feed those felines, otherwise...

Tl;dr: No one is here to cast judgement on if someone is a terrible person. You see someone's cards, just say you see there damn cards, and your conscience will be clear and you'll have no worries.

What other great quandaries does PCF have for me?

 

[Jimulacrum]

You’re introducing a somewhat different case — someone who accidentally flashes a card once, and someone who does it *constantly* and ignores repeated warnings.

With the latter, you can just say “Hey, I think I saw his hand” and let the dealer decide how to handle it.

If you are gaining that info almost every hand, I think it is (a) too massive an advantage to ignore, and (b) so reckless by the other player that the consequences are 100% on them.

Ex.: I once was at a casino table when a guy sat down and just started talking at the top of his lungs nonstop. Big, heavyset guy, manspreading, sunglasses, seemed to think we all couldn’t wait to hear his every thought.

Also at some point he mentioned that he had recently been in jail for drunk driving, which maybe colored my lack of sympathy when he started carelessly showing his cards every hand.

First time I looked away as he started to flash his cards and put my hand out sideways to indicate “hey, you might want to protect those.”

Next time I audibly said, “Hey, I can see your hand.”

Third time (when I had something I wanted to play) I announced before betting that I saw his hand. Dealer told me to say what I saw and for the player to confirm if that was correct.

This continued for a while, but the guy just kept blathering at us and practicing zero hand security. Things never really came to a head because he got stacked very quickly, rebought, got stacked again and left.

I have no sympathy for the drunk in your case. In fact I'd want him out of the game, so as far as announcing his cards, go for it. Hopefully he'll get mad and leave. His presence is a net drag on the game. But I don't think this approach serves the best interests of the game in general. Only when the player is a shithead.

I find it really unusual that the dealer would tell you to announce his cards, but even stranger that he'd tell the player to confirm. Does flasher have any actual obligation to confirm here? What happens if he refuses? What happens if he lies and we find out at showdown? Really weird demand from the dealer, and probably not enforceable in any way.

 

[ekricket]

After the preflop betting but before the flop is dealt, after you know who is in, anybody with sense would just say “I saw (the big stack) has an ace of diamonds.”
Then the dealer has to check. Now the table knows whether or not the big stack has an ace of diamonds. Knowing they don’t might be just as handy as knowing they do.

Just play. Quit looking over there. Nobody’s putting cards three inches from your nose. When you see he’s going to look at his cards, look away. That’s what I do. I’m one of those rare individuals that can adjust my behavior for the good of the group. But I understand that there people out there that think the world has to fit their behavior.

I’ve been in a situation where the dealer determined someone had seen his opponents hand. He killed the peepers hand. Everybody got a lot better about minding their own business.

 

[Jimulacrum]

P.S. The other problem with waiting until you’re in a hand with the flasher is that your decision on whether to enter the hand will be influenced either way by what you saw.

If you have KsQs and see before you act that he has KK, you fold a hand you probably were going to play... So you have still gained an unfair advantage (and disadvantaged the flasher) even though you didn’t technically “have to” to tell the table what you saw. You saved yourself chips on most runouts… at his expense.

If instead you play the hand without saying you saw his, and then play exploitavely based on the runouts, that is also plainly unfair.

So the only choice is to announce that you saw it.

I agree that it's unfair for me to be able to get away from KQ for free when flasher has KK.

It's an unfairness against the flasher alone. A pretty terrible one too, but once he flashes the cards, what's done is done.

Is it unfair against the other players too? Maybe, marginally, though you have to consider the balance of all outcomes, and in some cases I'll be saving them from getting up against KK by making pot/stack odds less attractive, or whatever. If we could measure this edge, at best I'd say it's thinner than a razor. Undoing this tiny edge is all that is gained by telling everyone flasher has KK.

Back to the flasher. His loss against me for flashing his cards is already huge. It only becomes drastically more unfair if I now tell the whole table he has KK, and now every one of his opponents can play perfectly against him. This is what's lost by telling everyone flasher has KK. He's totally disenfranchised of his hand.

I could see an argument that fairness is everyone getting the same insurmountable, hand-destroying edge I got by seeing flasher's cards, and if that's where you stand on this, I don't think we'll ever agree. The cost of making this happen is too great in my eyes.

I guess if we're ever at the table with each other, we'll have to be extra careful to protect our hands.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Just play. Quit looking over there. Nobody’s putting cards three inches from your nose. When you see he’s going to look at his cards, look away. That’s what I do. I’m one of those rare individuals that can adjust my behavior for the good of the group. But I understand that there people out there that think the world has to fit their behavior.

I've been put in this situation way more times than I've cared to.

With friends, I'll avert my eyes every time. Even then, sometimes I can't help but catch a glimpse, but I do my best. The price I pay is I don't see the person reacting to looking at his cards. I don't see if his eyes flinch down to his chips or any of the other random signals people give off—an edge that my opponnents who don't have line of sight on his cards still get to have. But it's worth it to me, with friends.

With strangers in a public cardroom, it's just a different situation. I still want to give a little grace. It's just limited.

I’ve been in a situation where the dealer determined someone had seen his opponents hand. He killed the peepers hand. Everybody got a lot better about minding their own business.

What were the exact circumstances? My instinct is that it's wildly inappropriate for a dealer to kill a player's hand for seeing another player's hand, unless the "peeper" was in fact a peeper, i.e., he only saw the cards because he went out of his way to see them. Then kill his hand. And if he does it again, rack him up.

 

[ekricket]

I've been put in this situation way more times than I've cared to.

With friends, I'll avert my eyes every time. Even then, sometimes I can't help but catch a glimpse, but I do my best. The price I pay is I don't see the person reacting to looking at his cards. I don't see if his eyes flinch down to his chips or any of the other random signals people give off—an edge that my opponnents who don't have line of sight on his cards still get to have. But it's worth it to me, with friends.

With strangers in a public cardroom, it's just a different situation. I still want to give a little grace. It's just limited.


What were the exact circumstances? My instinct is that it's wildly inappropriate for a dealer to kill a player's hand for seeing another player's hand, unless the "peeper" was in fact a peeper, i.e., he only saw the cards because he went out of his way to see them. Then kill his hand. And if he does it again, rack him up.

No, the dealer was helicoptering cards, and after he dealt he told the player “I saw you could see his cards - indicating his neighbor - and your hand is dead”. And he reached over and pulled the guys cards in front of him (the dealer) into what would become the muck.
The whole table was dumbfounded. We played on and the guy was shell shocked for a while. It was a tournament so he couldn’t just leave.

 

[Jimulacrum]

No, the dealer was helicoptering cards, and after he dealt he told the player “I saw you could see his cards - indicating his neighbor - and your hand is dead”. And he reached over and pulled the guys cards in front of him (the dealer) into what would become the muck.
The whole table was dumbfounded. We played on and the guy was shell shocked for a while. It was a tournament so he couldn’t just leave.

Can't say I'm surprised that a dealer who couldn't even pitch properly would also bungle a routine misdeal ruling.

 

[Taghkanic]

I agree that it's unfair for me to be able to get away from KQ for free when flasher has KK.

It's an unfairness against the flasher alone. A pretty terrible one too, but once he flashes the cards, what's done is done.

Is it unfair against the other players too?

The answer is “sometimes.”

Maybe not very often.

But you can’t know which times those are just by seeing his hand and your own.

There are so many scenarios, and no one plays their cards identically.

You just can’t know what others are holding, how the action will play out, and what your private decision’s impact will be.

It can’t be left up to you to decide when to disclose and when not to. That in itself is de facto an angle—even when you try to avoid making an exploitative decision.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

What about if your opponent always splits their range preflop in an obvious way, and every time they limp/call you know they have a suited ace or a pocket pair less than 77? Is it incumbent on you to let them know they are playing face up? Should you also share this info with the rest of the table so you all have access to the same info?

The difference is if my friend asked for advice I'd tell him to stop splitting his range preflop. If someone at the casino asks me I'll say to play 4s because 4s have been hot all morning.

It's an exploitative game of incomplete information. If people are giving it out freely, I'll take it. I'm really ok being a terrible person at the poker table because I lead such an exceedingly virtuous life otherwise

What's the difference? You wouldn't at a home game. What about a home game where you don't know anyone? What about simply an underground or raked home game where the intent is specifically to make money? What if it's your buddy with you at the casino whose cards you see? Where do you draw this line personally?

Additionally, what's the net positive/negative? At a casino, not saying something you get the slight edge that you may not even really be able to exploit for a hand or three? Negative could be a range of things. I suppose if you play poker professionally and your cats are desperate for food, any slight edge needs to be exploited to feed those felines, otherwise...

Tl;dr: No one is here to cast judgement on if someone is a terrible person. You see someone's cards, just say you see there damn cards, and your conscience will be clear and you'll have no worries.

View attachment 1440339

What other great quandaries does PCF have for me?

 

[Taghkanic]

What about if your opponent always splits their range preflop in an obvious way, and every time they limp/call you know they have a suited ace or a pocket pair less than 77? Is it incumbent on you to let them know they are playing face up? Should you also share this info with the rest of the table so you all have access to the same info?

The difference is if my friend asked for advice I'd tell him to stop splitting his range preflop. If someone at the casino asks me I'll say to play 4s because 4s have been hot all morning.

It's an exploitative game of incomplete information. If people are giving it out freely, I'll take it. I'm really ok being a terrible person at the poker table because I lead such an exceedingly virtuous life otherwise

Completely different topics.

Making an educated guess about an opponent’s range is a skill, but imperfect even when executed well.

Seeing an opponent’s exact two cards every hand is perfect information.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

Well my vision isn't very good and I have a stiff neck, sooo...

 

[BarrieJ3]

What about if your opponent always splits their range preflop in an obvious way, and every time they limp/call you know they have a suited ace or a pocket pair less than 77? Is it incumbent on you to let them know they are playing face up? Should you also share this info with the rest of the table so you all have access to the same info?

The difference is if my friend asked for advice I'd tell him to stop splitting his range preflop. If someone at the casino asks me I'll say to play 4s because 4s have been hot all morning.

It's an exploitative game of incomplete information. If people are giving it out freely, I'll take it. I'm really ok being a terrible person at the poker table because I lead such an exceedingly virtuous life otherwise

Idk what in the stroke is going on in your comment.

BUT, you sound like a blast to play with. You’ll fit in here with everyone really well.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

Idk what in the stroke is going on in your comment.

BUT, you sound like a blast to play with. You’ll fit in here with everyone really well.

I am a blast to play with! Come play anytime you're in CT. I make snacks and share my bar, we honor intent with friendly reminders for procedure, I always remind players to keep their cards on the table, and altogether run a fair, fun, friendly game. We do not talk strategy at the table but I'm always down for a chat later on. I'll tap the table or slap a back with a smile when I get runner runnered and apologize when I cooler.

I do not have a hot dog roller at the moment but I'm considering it.

I also have shared my experiences being cheated in a hopes of my friends not experiencing the same fate. Which I think this thread is actually about.

Never play with a borderless deck, there is absolutely no need other than bottom dealing.

A loud rambunctious dealer that's moving a lot has an easier time rolling the deck for a peek, watch out for animated hand talkers.

A cut card does not completely prevent bottom dealing or peeking.

Frequent bathroom trips, baggy jackets, sitting cool guy style in your chair are all make hot decking easier or more probable.

Beware of distractions, a partner might draw attention while the cheat switches the deck.

Beware of hosts who non randomly control where you sit.

Cards can often be marked with card protectors or nails. It often happens inadvertently. Nothing wrong with bringing it up. If the answer is anything except let's switch the deck, stop playing.

The dealer should NEVER shuffle their own deck.

The cut should be started and completed right before dealing. Don't ever do a half cut and allow the dealer to complete. This is incredibly easy to defeat.

I do hope to see some PCF peeps at a game

 

[Jimulacrum]

A loud rambunctious dealer that's moving a lot has an easier time rolling the deck for a peek, watch out for animated hand talkers.

I'd like to add "fidgety."

I don't trust anyone who has excessive ants in his pants. Not at poker or anywhere else.

People who seem to be acting weird for no reason are usually acting weird for a reason.

 

[JustinInMN]

I'd like to add "fidgety."

I don't trust anyone who has excessive ants in his pants. Not at poker or anywhere else.

People who seem to be acting weird for no reason are usually acting weird for a reason.

Unfortunately we have a generation of overperscribed Ritalin kids all grown up .