WhiteMamba1646
4 of a Kind
What is a good blind structure for a T500 set?
Tourney T- Base Preference for Tournaments (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter AnteAndy
- Start date
I play t500 we do:
500/1000
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
4000/8000
5k/10k
Double up til the end
We start with:
20- $500
20- $1000
10- $5000
We like lots of chips on the table. High chip is $10k
Not sure if that helps. We’ve been doing that for about 13 years and all my players love it
DeeVee8
Flush
Triton poker series has one I like. 250k stack. I ran the percent of change, and the max increase on any level was less than 33%. I’m going to run this later this summer. I think I’ll go stacks of 6/12/12/7.
https://triton-series.com/triton-super-high-roller-series-jeju-2020/
We use this progression (although you can also start with 500/500 for even deeper stacks):
500/1000
500/1500
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10k/20k
15k/30k
etc.
which maintains a 33%-to-50% increase per level (with an occasional 25% to reset the numbers).
Pretty much an identical progression as many typical T25 structures.
By using varied starting blinds of 500/500 to 1000/2000 combined with starting stacks of 50k to 300k, you can host widely different events ranging from 50bb turbos (with optional re-buys) to super-deep 600bb marathons, and everything in-between.
What makes T100 easier with BBA than T25? Isn't the big blind already at 100 or more by the time the BBA kicks in? I've only played in a BBA tournament once, so I'm not familiar enough to know why it would be different. Thanks!
I really like the comment of it feeling like real money. I think for my crew, that would be a major plus.
No T25 chips (or color-up) required.
Tonystark137
Flush
I and My players are the same. I built a T1K set on royal card room.My players like big stacks (and they cannot lie?). More people seem to show up when we played with 25-30k instead of 10k. As a math guy, I hate to tell them that its the same, given the proportion of the starting blinds.
View attachment 564943
Next game: 1,000,000 Stack. Blinds start at 5,000-10,000.
I don’t really comprehend the discussion of which chip base makes the gameplay easier for newbies or other types of players.
The speed with which the chips get into play and get depleted depends on the blind structure relative to the chip values, right?
And a well-structured blind progression should be essentially the same (in relative values) whether you start with 5, 25, 50, 100 or for that matter a 10,000 base chip.
As long as starting stacks have the same effective buying power in terms of BB, a blind progression which starts at 5/5 then goes to 5/10 and then 10/20 is the same as 50/50 >>> 50/100 >>> 100-200 etc., assuming the starting stacks are 10x larger.
There can be some vagaries I suppose, since a 25 chip is 1/4 the size of the 100 (the next chip up) while a 100 is 1/5th of a 500.
But again, isn’t it still up to the host to tailor the timing and size of blinds and starting stacks to make a sensible tourney, fitting the number of players and how long they want to play, regardless of the size of the smallest chip?
……..
All that said, I used to prefer a base 100 chip when I was using my old solids set. But when I started assembling a Jack Detroit tourney set, it was not easy and not cheap to buy 1K and 5K chips. So starting with 25s as my base meant I needed fewer of the large denoms.
But that didn’t really change the blind structure meaningfully. It just meant the starting stacks were “smaller” in value because the lowest chip was “smaller.”
Relatively, it’s still the same tournament with either set. Players have the same BBs and effective spending power either way.
The speed with which the chips get into play and get depleted depends on the blind structure relative to the chip values, right?
And a well-structured blind progression should be essentially the same (in relative values) whether you start with 5, 25, 50, 100 or for that matter a 10,000 base chip.
As long as starting stacks have the same effective buying power in terms of BB, a blind progression which starts at 5/5 then goes to 5/10 and then 10/20 is the same as 50/50 >>> 50/100 >>> 100-200 etc., assuming the starting stacks are 10x larger.
There can be some vagaries I suppose, since a 25 chip is 1/4 the size of the 100 (the next chip up) while a 100 is 1/5th of a 500.
But again, isn’t it still up to the host to tailor the timing and size of blinds and starting stacks to make a sensible tourney, fitting the number of players and how long they want to play, regardless of the size of the smallest chip?
……..
All that said, I used to prefer a base 100 chip when I was using my old solids set. But when I started assembling a Jack Detroit tourney set, it was not easy and not cheap to buy 1K and 5K chips. So starting with 25s as my base meant I needed fewer of the large denoms.
But that didn’t really change the blind structure meaningfully. It just meant the starting stacks were “smaller” in value because the lowest chip was “smaller.”
Relatively, it’s still the same tournament with either set. Players have the same BBs and effective spending power either way.
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Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Perhaps I can help.
Yes, it shouldn't matter. 200 BBs is 200 BBs. But that is not how new players think. New players think primarily in chips. Not the value of the chips, but the sheer volume of chips sitting in front of them.
I find that the majority of new poker players use a very similar preflop play style.
- Limping into a lot of pots - nearly every single pot
- They don't raise - AA or J-7 suited are valued the same preflop
The T5 works extremely well in this scenario. Base T5 sets allow for you to give the new player a full hour to learn the game somewhat safely. With a T5000 starting stack, players start deep-stacked with 500 BB. If your set supports it, you can also allocate 15 x T5 chips per player, so the cost of learning is just 1/7th of their "red" chips (remember they rarely think in terms of value).
The wake-up call occurs when they start exchanging their "green" chips. That's when they tighten up - a good move when you have been playing any two. By this point, the first hour is almost up, the new player has lost very little, and they are starting to build a reasonable ABC range.
What's more, with the first hour having levels of 5-10 / 10-20 / 15-30 / 25-50, they still have 100 BB (minus their losses) in their starting stack. At this point, you can color off the T5 training wheels, and you start playing a base T25 tournament.
The new player KO'ed at about the 2 hour mark has had a real opportunity to learn the game, and enjoy the camaraderie we all share at a home game.
Sure, but what you appear to be suggesting has less to do with the size of the base chip than with the slowness of the blinds—adding some baby step levels early on before getting to the “real” tournament.
Seems like the same thing could be accomplished by making early levels long, and minimizing the jumps.
When I was learning tournament poker, first in a home game and then in low stakes firehouse/social hall games, *all* of these started the blinds at 100/200… Often with ridiculously slow blind structures, which allowed almost everyone to survive to the lunch break at 2-3 hours in.
The rather unskilled player pool did not seem to have a problem figuring this out. in fact, it might have been easier than using fives as the base chip, since early round raises were all easy to grasp round numbers between 300-1,000.
I’m trying to imagine the chaos in these games (where players are often inattentive) if people had been betting amounts like 15 and 35.
Seems like the same thing could be accomplished by making early levels long, and minimizing the jumps.
When I was learning tournament poker, first in a home game and then in low stakes firehouse/social hall games, *all* of these started the blinds at 100/200… Often with ridiculously slow blind structures, which allowed almost everyone to survive to the lunch break at 2-3 hours in.
The rather unskilled player pool did not seem to have a problem figuring this out. in fact, it might have been easier than using fives as the base chip, since early round raises were all easy to grasp round numbers between 300-1,000.
I’m trying to imagine the chaos in these games (where players are often inattentive) if people had been betting amounts like 15 and 35.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I am fairly certain with over 60+ new players taught (not counting celebrities at fundraiser events) that I have never seen a raise to 35, but I certainly agree it could happen. I just don't think it ever has.
Using base T100 utilizes a x100 multiplier. Why use a T100, if what you really mean is T1? The answer is simple: you want to instill the illusion of playing for higher stakes. The same reason some players like T25,000 base sets - so they can bet a million *touching pinky to the corner of the mouth*. While the seasoned player would find such artificial stakes irrelevant (most pros think in terms of big blinds), the less skilled player can be thrilled with the big numbers. The unskilled player may even be intimidated.
It certainly is detrimental to intimidate a player that is brand new to the game, especially if they are sitting at a table with other players that are highly skilled. This may seem inconsequential, but I have had a player in the early days that seemed to really enjoy the game - until the blinds reached 500-1000. "That's a mortgage payment", he exclaimed. everyone laughed - then we saw he was literally shaking, and locked up with fear. We tried to calm him by telling him it was a $20 tournament. It failed. He went from chip leader to the grand master of folding. He played a few more games, but eventually quit. T1000 was a house note, logic be damned. Poker is as much psychological as it is logical.
The Highly Skilled Players
When introducing a new player to the game, your Highly skilled players have to swallow a tough pill. Inattentiveness, long ponderings of a "simple" decision, and all the bad "cowboy movie" habits. Fortunately, poker is easy. I've only had one player after an hour ask "what are my options again"? After an hour, you want the game to play like any other game. It keeps seasoned players happy, and gives the new players a feel for a "real" game.
With the base T5 structure, after 1 hour you color up the T5s, and now you are playing a standard T25 tournament. Easy-Peazy.
Comparisons
I would try to point out the advantages of a T5 structure over a T100, but as I typed it I realized I was making assumptions on what your T100 structure looks like, based on my T100 structures (I took my T100 without a BBA from Bally's, Las Vegas). So I'll pass on that aspect.
So what advantages does T5 give?
- Psychological. Smaller number are simply less intimidating to someone already trying to overcome poker's bad reputation.
- No alterations from a standard T25 structure after the first hour.
- At least 500 BB to start. Averages around 90 BB after an hour of play, when they have the ABC's down. ABC isn't exactly winning poker, but it's not critically bad poker either. I have seen many ABC players min-cash (25-30% deep pay tables help).
- It fits with your current set (provided your current set was base T100). However, MOAR CHIPS, so actually getting a learner's set is really a T5 advantage
. - It matches casino play. I strongly support getting new players ready to someday play in a casino. I don't want to just support my home game, I want to support poker in general. However most casinos use a BBA. The BBA makes limping preflop a less valuable option due to the pot size, thus putting the new players at a disadvantage. So while matching casino play is noble, I'd prefer to keep the new (almost always limping) player on a more level playing surface for at least a little while. Shear the sheep, don't slaughter them.
Conclusion
I'm certainly not saying you cant teach with a T100 base. It's just that may years of play and teaching experience, and an owner of T5, T25, T100 and T500 sets, I have found the experience to be best with the T5 for the above reasons. My T5 set is still the most demanded set on Ladies night, where women who are still too intimidated to play with the "big boys" can play in a comfortable atmosphere.
Which is fine by me. My T5 set is ABS plastic, so I don't like to feature it.
I hear everything you are saying.
But this particular guy sounds like someone who is not likely to play poker for very long, no matter what chips or blinds you use.
P.S. The way I would explain tournament chip values to a total newbie who is afraid of high numbers is to tell them they represent points, not dollars.
And emphasize that in a $20 tournament, the most anyone can lose is $20 (assuming no rebuys).
Or with rebuys, $2s per set of chips that they choose to buy. And no one can force them to rebuy.
Depending on their age, one could liken it to points in a video game. When you play Galaga or Centipede and rack up 1,000,000 points, you don’t get a million bucks.
But again, if you’re having trouble getting this point across, I can't imagine even the most patient and thoughtful host being able to keep that kind of player in the game for long.
And emphasize that in a $20 tournament, the most anyone can lose is $20 (assuming no rebuys).
Or with rebuys, $2s per set of chips that they choose to buy. And no one can force them to rebuy.
Depending on their age, one could liken it to points in a video game. When you play Galaga or Centipede and rack up 1,000,000 points, you don’t get a million bucks.
But again, if you’re having trouble getting this point across, I can't imagine even the most patient and thoughtful host being able to keep that kind of player in the game for long.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I try to avoid common mistakes - frequently people say things like "100 bucks". You cant really stop them. At least with T5 and T25 chips that tend toward "nickel" and "quarter" before jumping to $100. 
Preditor
Pair
I find it fascinating how - functionally - all of these tournament structures usually equate to the same starting stack (100-200BB). But different numbers "feel" different.
I like the "feeling" of the T25 tournament structure best.
I was using dice chips for a long time. They were denominational-less so I used to mark them for a T5 base.
I researched PCF for a nicer tournament set to buy. I understand why T100 is increasing in popularity. But I went with T25 for a few reasons:
I like the "feeling" of the T25 tournament structure best.
I was using dice chips for a long time. They were denominational-less so I used to mark them for a T5 base.
I researched PCF for a nicer tournament set to buy. I understand why T100 is increasing in popularity. But I went with T25 for a few reasons:
- It seems to be the most written about.
- Green players seem to care more about the NUMBER of "chips" as opposed to the VALUE of chips. A T25 with a 12/12/5/6 starting stacks "feels" like you have a lot.
- Also for green players, starting with a 25/50 blind "feels" like decent stakes, but not over-intimidatingly so.
- The set can transition to a T100 easily if I decide to do that one day with just a few tweaks/chip additions.
- I really wanted the Majestics, and unfortunately those chips cap out at T5000.
- On a personal note, I find SB's that aren’t exactly half of the BB (100/100, 100/300, etc.) annoying to my OCD.
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louBdub
4 of a Kind
T500 for life now.
It just plays right for me.
It just plays right for me.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
This is where I am too. I did semi custom Valentinos last year from @ABC Gifts and Awards.
Attachments
Mr Winberg
Full House
This really doesn't have anything to do with the base chip, though. You can have 25/25 and/or 25/75 levels just as easily as you can have base T100 and do 100/200, 200/400 etc. At T40k stacks that's still 200BB. I use T100 base most of the time and never use lopsided levels. I usually start with 50k for 250BBs.
One way that keeps them in play for much longer is finding a way to incorporate 250/500. Just squeezing it in between 200/400 and 300/600 means that the tourney will last one level longer, which means you have to shorten each level. :-(
Another way (OCD unfriendly, so not for everyone!) is to merge 200/400 and 300/600 into 250/500. This means that the jumps are
...
100/200
150/300
250/500
Color-up
400/800
etc...
To compensate for the merger you should increase the length of 150/300 and 250/500 (or just 250/500, whatever you like, but I prefer increasing both). For example, if the levels are 20 minutes long, since 150/300, 200/400 and 300/600 would be 60 minutes, you can set 150/300 and 250/500 to 30 minutes each, meaning they still take 60 minutes.
This greatly increases the time the T25 spend on the felt. I have never done this for that reason, but I've done it when using a T25 base set with few T100. The 200/400 level requires 8 T100 when using BBA, so I prefer the merger mentioned above when the T100 are scarce.
Preditor
Pair
Thanks for your input.
You're not technically wrong. But as you said, if you run a T200 and want players to have 200BB you need to start with T40K. I personally find that just a bit too unwieldy.
Compound that with needing T80K if you want a 400BB deep stack freeze out. For T25, that's T20K. Just seems simpler to me.
Especially when you factor in that the chipset I got doesn't have a T25K chip. It's not really an option for me. (SIDE NOTE: Apache, please make a T25K for the Majestics!)
I also think - psychologically again - players are a bit more reluctant to jump in with 100/200 blinds. This obviously is game specific. Seasoned players will know it's about the number of big blings. But greener players want more play overall, I think. My game needs to cater to both.
Hmm. Not actually inherently opposed to this! I'll think on it.
As it stands now though, we only really have one level where - 200/400 - where the T25s are useless. So we live with it for 20 minutes.
Depends on the chip. In previous tourney sets I’ve owned…
JC T25
AST T25
ESPT T25
ESST T100
JC T25
AST T25
ESPT T25
ESST T100
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
The correct answer is multiple sets with varied base levels. "Player of the Year" when you only use one structure would be like baseball shifting to all identical stadiums, or making all golf courses look the same.
Mr Winberg
Full House
Oversized Royal with custom Majestic labels as the 25k. You're welcome
Preditor
Pair
I know! I was planning this. But they discontinued blank Royal (and Majestic) chips.Oversized Royal with custom Majestic labels as the 25k. You're welcome
Mr Winberg
Full House
So buy the ones with labels, then buy an exacto knife to peel them off! You'll only need very few anyway, you can probably buy some from someone here if you place an add.
IME you only need T25k after you pass around 7-800k in total chips. How big a total chip count are you anticipating?
Preditor
Pair
Yes I agree, which is why I am not too torn for it. I run a T25, and only possess about $500K chips total. Even at a deep-stack with 25 people, that's just T500K.
I just want to do a T25k option if I ever decide to dabble in a T100 tourney.
But like you said, I am a while from needing that.
I was about to say, get the 25k plaques. But I see those are out of stock.
https://www.apachepokerchips.com/product/majestic-25000-plaque/
PokerLegend
Two Pair
I’ve always done 20 minute blinds or 15 minute blinds. I have not seen where they start at 20 min, then 15 minutes and then 10 minutes. Is this a better way to run a tournament?
{shudder}
Mr Winberg
Full House
IMO no, it's worse. When the blinds get higher and there's more tanking, the levels are shortened? It would turn into a turbo.
I'd rather do the opposite, a quicker warm-up and longer levels when the blinds are higher.
I prefer having all levels the same length, though.
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