I respect your opinion in these threads and always enjoy reading your thoughtful analyses but check/folding aces here seems ridiculously tight. There’re plenty of value to be had from draws and smaller pocket pairs.
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Tough spot with AA UTG (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Beakertwang
- Start date
This hand is shaping up like every time I get aces in our home game.
Cold call...call..call..call...4 to the flop.
All low cards.
Here comes the part where I check raise the flop, check call the turn, and fold pitifully on the river to an all-in.
Cold call...call..call..call...4 to the flop.
All low cards.
Here comes the part where I check raise the flop, check call the turn, and fold pitifully on the river to an all-in.
In case it's not clear, the angry emoji is in jestChicken.
I like betting here to see where I'm at. Best case is that hero takes it down right then and there or gets it down to heads up. Worst case is a re-raise that I cry call and fold to just about any paired board or made flush draw.
Truth is Aces in the hole, while statistically the best hand, do not carry magical properties.
OP
OP
Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.Playing Mavens .5/1 NLHE game.
Villain 1 I would consider solid TAG. Villain 2 is LAG, a winning player, pretty crafty. He's willing to make big plays, but is not a maniac.
Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)
I have. I open to $4, which is pretty standard for me. V1 calls, MP calls, V2 calls, BB completes.
Pot $20.50
Flop
BB checks.
Action on hero.
V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.
Action on hero.
Last edited:
While V1 could certainly flat your bet with 99ish and V2 could be raising that with A3ish of diamonds, I think I’m out at this point
Kain8
Flush
Ben8257
Royal Flush
Conservative Ben is folding. Too much action on the board. Well atleast you avoided the pot bet. Lmao Craig and I would say "damn there went that $20 feeler bet" Say goodbye to the $10.25 and sit back and look at that monster chip stack Andrew!!
Cry call and see a turn. I'd check/fold the turn no matter what comes up for pot control and see what villain does.
You asked the question and got the answer. I'm out, need a beer refill.
Legend5555
Full House
...
Legend5555
Full House
My official line...
TheWhiteJZ
Two Pair
Fold
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
This sort of situation happens all the time in home games. If we are to thrive, the lesson of this hand needs to be burned into our game style.
Big preflop hands shrivel in deep stack play. Deep stacks means position matters more. Sticky + loose + aggressive villains create a swarm of uncertainty - they "protect" each other. The reverse implied odds risk is potentially devastating.
Hero needs to think ahead, not just one decision point at a time. Hero is risking 100+ bb, as much as 300+ bb to win a 20bb pot. Half the table called the UTG raise. Pretty much every hand Hero hates is potentially in play.
Yes, Hero is facing some hands he crushes. All the Broadway hands are toast unless they make a flush. Same with the lesser pairs. The focus for me in on the other end of the spectrum. How much is Hero willing to pay to find out if the big bets are semi-bluff draws vs sets+ vs misguided over-pairs?
Hero's hand has equity. But the problem is that the equity is hard to realize. The tougher the table, the harder it is. None of this should be a secret to experienced Heroes. It should influence every decision made.
We all know Hero is going to face multiple decision points in a hand. The better players will think of these as a package, not one at a time. This is why I proposed the craven check / fold(?) line. This hand potentially gets really hard on Hero. Why do that?
Hero's pair of aces is rarely the best hand if big money goes into the pot. The good LAGs know this. Hero's top end range is pocket aces or the nut flush draw. Hero is a sitting duck vs villain's he knows well and who know him well. Does hero eventually fold in these situations? If so, the LAG will bluff Hero to pieces. Does Hero stack off with one pair? Then the table takes Hero to value town.
Hero was spent as soon as the flop hits the felt. Multi way, coordinated flop that misses Hero's UTG raise range. Just say no! This isn't going to go well for Hero run out over many iterations. Yes, there will be times Hero picks up 20bb. A few times even more. And times the money goes in and the draws miss. But on balance the occasional disaster overwhelms a lot of small wins.
Been there, done that, have some scars, learned not to do it again -=- DrStrange
Big preflop hands shrivel in deep stack play. Deep stacks means position matters more. Sticky + loose + aggressive villains create a swarm of uncertainty - they "protect" each other. The reverse implied odds risk is potentially devastating.
Hero needs to think ahead, not just one decision point at a time. Hero is risking 100+ bb, as much as 300+ bb to win a 20bb pot. Half the table called the UTG raise. Pretty much every hand Hero hates is potentially in play.
Yes, Hero is facing some hands he crushes. All the Broadway hands are toast unless they make a flush. Same with the lesser pairs. The focus for me in on the other end of the spectrum. How much is Hero willing to pay to find out if the big bets are semi-bluff draws vs sets+ vs misguided over-pairs?
Hero's hand has equity. But the problem is that the equity is hard to realize. The tougher the table, the harder it is. None of this should be a secret to experienced Heroes. It should influence every decision made.
We all know Hero is going to face multiple decision points in a hand. The better players will think of these as a package, not one at a time. This is why I proposed the craven check / fold(?) line. This hand potentially gets really hard on Hero. Why do that?
Hero's pair of aces is rarely the best hand if big money goes into the pot. The good LAGs know this. Hero's top end range is pocket aces or the nut flush draw. Hero is a sitting duck vs villain's he knows well and who know him well. Does hero eventually fold in these situations? If so, the LAG will bluff Hero to pieces. Does Hero stack off with one pair? Then the table takes Hero to value town.
Hero was spent as soon as the flop hits the felt. Multi way, coordinated flop that misses Hero's UTG raise range. Just say no! This isn't going to go well for Hero run out over many iterations. Yes, there will be times Hero picks up 20bb. A few times even more. And times the money goes in and the draws miss. But on balance the occasional disaster overwhelms a lot of small wins.
Been there, done that, have some scars, learned not to do it again -=- DrStrange
TheWhiteJZ
Two Pair
I almost never find flaw in the good doctor, but in this case, look at the flop. Not sure how dangerous it really is. Those gambling with suited connectors are rarely going down to or below 76s. I would bet there are more K7s in the field. Moreover, anyone playing 77-KK is going to value own themselves. That’s a lot of hands. With ranges so W I D E, I’d wager you get folds around more often than you get this call/raise action. There are certainly 4x combos that completely whiffed compare to those that are going to rewrite.
I would certainly proceed cautiously, but I wouldn’t give up just bc I got called 4 ways. When you get this action you can confidently give it up and have risked little; when you get folds around you realize your equity; when the action is more tame you can win a solid pot.
I would certainly proceed cautiously, but I wouldn’t give up just bc I got called 4 ways. When you get this action you can confidently give it up and have risked little; when you get folds around you realize your equity; when the action is more tame you can win a solid pot.
OP
OP
Action so far:
Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)
I have
. I open to $4, which is pretty standard for me. V1 calls, MP calls, V2 calls, BB completes.
Pot $20.50
Flop
BB checks.
Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.
V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.
A little more info on Villain 2: He is definitely willing to exploit situations and tendencies. I've seen him 3-bet from the small blind with a very wide range when there is a raise and several callers (IIRC, he did so 86 suited once, and it got to showdown). He will often call light pre, and barrel at any sign of weakness. I suspect he's taken quite a bit of money from me this way.
Not long before this hand happened, I raised from Mwith AKo. Got a couple callers, and Villain 3-bet from the BB. Knowing he could be wide, I 4-bet, and he called. Flop was Kxx, 2 clubs, turn was an offsuit 9, and he put me all in. I called, and he showed QcJc, and my hand held.
With this in mind. I call. In retrospect, I think the call is the worst option, with raise being better, and fold being best, with V1 still to act behind.
Hero calls, V1 calls.
Turn
Hero?
Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)
I have
. I open to $4, which is pretty standard for me. V1 calls, MP calls, V2 calls, BB completes. Pot $20.50
Flop
BB checks.
Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.
V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.
A little more info on Villain 2: He is definitely willing to exploit situations and tendencies. I've seen him 3-bet from the small blind with a very wide range when there is a raise and several callers (IIRC, he did so 86 suited once, and it got to showdown). He will often call light pre, and barrel at any sign of weakness. I suspect he's taken quite a bit of money from me this way.
Not long before this hand happened, I raised from Mwith AKo. Got a couple callers, and Villain 3-bet from the BB. Knowing he could be wide, I 4-bet, and he called. Flop was Kxx, 2 clubs, turn was an offsuit 9, and he put me all in. I called, and he showed QcJc, and my hand held.
With this in mind. I call. In retrospect, I think the call is the worst option, with raise being better, and fold being best, with V1 still to act behind.
Hero calls, V1 calls.
Turn
Hero?
Check/foldAction so far:
Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)
I have
Pot $20.50
Flop
BB checks.
Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.
V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.
A little more info on Villain 2: He is definitely willing to exploit situations and tendencies. I've seen him 3-bet from the small blind with a very wide range when there is a raise and several callers (IIRC, he did so 86 suited once, and it got to showdown). He will often call light pre, and barrel at any sign of weakness. I suspect he's taken quite a bit of money from me this way.
Not long before this hand happened, I raised from Mwith AKo. Got a couple callers, and Villain 3-bet from the BB. Knowing he could be wide, I 4-bet, and he called. Flop was Kxx, 2 clubs, turn was an offsuit 9, and he put me all in. I called, and he showed QcJc, and my hand held.
With this in mind. I call. In retrospect, I think the call is the worst option, with raise being better, and fold being best, with V1 still to act behind.
Hero calls, V1 calls.
Turn
Hero?
Check/fold
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
First, you have to have reads on your opponents to make these sorts of decisions. This is an easy call for me unless the villain is a nit (in which case I'm folding). You can't just fold AA to a single raise in a hand like this in general. And if I'm up against someone who regularly does this with smaller overpairs and semi-bluffs draw hands, then I'm shoving here every time unless they're playing deep, because he won't have a set or the straight often enough for him to come out ahead in the long run.
Last edited:
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I just reread the descriptions in the OP. V2 is a crafty LAG but is 300 BB deep. You simply cannot fold AA on this board in this spot to a player like that. You're just going to get walked all over if you play like this. If you are the type of player who folds to this raise or aren't comfortable proceeding in this spot, then you are better off taking @DrStrange's line and just check folding the flop out of the gate (this is definitely not optimal, but it's a good way to prevent you from making big mistakes). But we're WAY ahead of the LAG's range here. They are doing this with all overpairs, any combo draws, overs with a gutshot, all flush draws, all pair plus gutshot holdings, all A6 hands, and even the occasional random overcards just hoping to steal. We are miles ahead of their range. Against this player, I'm calling here. On the turn, I'd check and just let them hang themselves. They'll often slow down after a big call. If villain fires $100 plus again on the turn, especially if it's a scary card, then we can give up. But if the turn looks safe, or if an off suit K or Q falls, they will often just check it back. I want to see a showdown here vs an ultra laggy player. But I won't overpay to get there.
markleteenie
4 of a Kind
Because this is online, it seems the villain just hit a “pot size” bet in the menu. That doesn’t necessarily indicate strength, just aggression. I still think you’re getting bullied. I’d prefer a raise, but it feels like a “play” is happening.
Now that you’re on the turn, I’d check/call down unless river is another diamond.
Now that you’re on the turn, I’d check/call down unless river is another diamond.
I don't recall this hand, but sucko is known to take lines like this with a flopped top pair if he thinks the board hasn't hit your range. Same with his sets and strong draws.
No way I'm folding to the raise. Definitely a shitty spot though, but I'm calling to evaluate the turn.
No way I'm folding to the raise. Definitely a shitty spot though, but I'm calling to evaluate the turn.
OP
OP
I didn't mention any names.
Oh, it's sicko? Re-raise all-in.I didn't mention any names.
(He probably gets there on the river.)
What do you mean probably
Edit to my earlier post
Im a sit and go / tournament player. This expalins my earlier "lets find out where we are" post.
anyway i always read @DrStrange posts with great interest.
anyway i look at this turn and see no end of horror. Oh God!!!!! How did you get in this position. i think this emoji says it all
That old saying "aces either win you a little or lose you a lot" secondly no hand has absolute power pre flop.
So now lets look at what cards can help you right now. Only 1 card can help you. The ace of spades.
What cards can hurt you? any 3 5 or diamond. so 16 cards. Lets add to that the real maniacs who chase down their inside straights. (god bless them. thats how we make money) Now you have another 6 cards that can hurt you. so now you have 22 cards to dodge to have any chance of a win and the only card that helps would probably doom you to second best.
Now lets go one further there are players you cant get off a hand if they have a pair. Lets call them "Russians"
Now you have to add all the pairs to the cards that might hurt you on the river. that makes 11 more cards that can hurt you on the river.
So You have a possible 33 cards that can hurt you and one that can help you.
33 to 1 makes the 8 to 1 inside straight a good option to chase. But there is possibly/probably a flush out there. Even if you hit your card your probably already dead.
check fold is the only option.
Remember the money you don't lose spends just as well as the money you win.
The lesson is to thin the herd preflop.
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