Tough spot with AA UTG (3 Viewers)

[RainmanTrail]

So now lets look at what cards can help you right now. Only 1 card can help you. The ace of spades.

??? Over half the deck are great cards for us here with AA. You guys are playing WAY too scared. This is not all that scary of a flop. You guys are acting like it's bet, raise, reraise, shove or something. It's a 6 high flop with one raise from a LAG in position. You are MILES ahead of his range.

 

[Legend5555]

??? Over half the deck are great cards for us here with AA. You guys are playing WAY too scared. This is not all that scary of a flop. You guys are acting like it's bet, raise, reraise, shove or something. It's a 6 high flop with one raise from a LAG in position. You are MILES ahead of his range.

I agree.

What is our plan going forward? This is not directed at you specifically, but to everyone. I agree we can't just fold if V2 is a decent LAG. But even as a decent LAG, this isn't a heads up pot. He's raising and reopening the action to 3 players, 2 of which have shown interest. Hero's hands looks a lot like what it is (TT-AA) by betting the flop into 4 people. Hero could also have something like AdJd+ depending on how loose he opens.

If we 3 bet this flop to say 100-120, that would make the pot ~$145, ~$60 to call for V2. If he jams, are we really stacking off for 300bb here? If he calls we are now OOP with less than a pot sized bet left. What do we do on a diamond, 3, 5, 7, or 8? What do we do on a safe card? V2 has all the power here and can just make our life a nightmare.

If we just call, V1 might jam and now we can pretty safely fold. If V1 calls, we just pay super cautious on the turn. If it gets heads up, then we can just evaluate turns and possibly just call down on safe cards. But how happy are we calling a triple barrel here with one pair this deep in a multiway pot?

Basically, given the bet line on the flop, I don't think we can just fold to a LAG raise. Otherwise he can just really run us over all day. But not much good is going to happen for us the rest of this hand.

 

[CHP TD]

??? Over half the deck are great cards for us here with AA. You guys are playing WAY too scared. This is not all that scary of a flop. You guys are acting like it's bet, raise, reraise, shove or something. It's a 6 high flop with one raise from a LAG in position. You are MILES ahead of his range.

thats a valid point.

This is my problem with cash games. My thinking is of a tounament player. At its most basic the fundamental rule is dont go broke. Yet tyhre thinking of cash games is about maximizing profit. I think. Is that right?

So survival is the most important thing i think about. As a result im crap at cash games. Thats why i weigh in. I want to learn more about the the thinking in cash games because it might as well be a completely different game.

So i really welcome cash game thinking. Put in the same spot that's what I'd do. Whats worse is there was no doubt there was another way to read it. The LAG cout get in with anything. At the local casino there are a bunch of players who loook at a raise and will call with any suited connector or small pair. Seriously 23 suited are good to call a relitavly small bet like the opener in this thread to hope for a crap flop. They know i'm a bit of a nit and they exploit it. but if big cards fall they will usually fold without much action. This is also pretty common at local cash games but thats mainly due to small stakes. there is always "that guy" that thinks 72 off is gold because he knows no one will play it. Hes the same guy playing anything suited.

Thanks for your reply Rainman - Seriously.

I also think i fold too much in cash games because of that tourney thinking.

Geoff

 

[CHP TD]

so a quick poll i think the hero is on very dangerous ground - additionally i donnt think theres a good enough bet to take this down right here. so i'm pretty sure we have another card coming and there's a very difficult decision to make on the river.

So we are here we cant give away free card and i would find it really hard to make a convincing stab at it.

I just hate this spot. to me it has all sorts of ugly and 3 people are still in. I just don't want multi way pots with AA.



Who thinks the hero is good at this point? And most importantly why?

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

I’d say 50/50 hero is good now with 50% chance the next card makes me feel worse (not really doing combos here, just a ballpark). With two Vs showing interest, I’m very skeptical.

I check and fold to anything bigger than 1/3 pot after this unfortunate turn.

If V2 barrels off with nothing or even TT-KK with a diamond, good for him. I’ll find a better spot to pick off his aggressiveness. That’s a promise, not a threat.

Maybe the diamond slows them down and we check through and get to see a River where I probobly do much the same.

Whoever said the lesson is to thin the field is dead on. Add a BB or two from UTG and play a tighter range (as if possible from this particular hero). If it were V2 heads up a) pot would be less bloated and dangerous b) he might not actually pull this move without leverage from V1 to help his fold equity on the flop.

 

[DrStrange]

Here we are - $150 in the pot, the TAG has $75 left, the LAG has $250. There is three to a flush on the table with an unlikely made straight and all sorts of draws in play. Hero's hand is unlikely to improve and even if it does, he could have been drawing dead.

Hero might have been tempted to try his luck vs the TAG alone. That villain could be holding a lesser pair + a diamond. Hero would be getting good odds with no risk to the bulk of his stack. Maybe. The TAG's calling twice on the flop sounds more like a draw rather than an overpair, who knows. But hero is facing two villains, one TAG one LAG. One short stacked and the other playing deeper.

I guess Hero could check, let the TAG act and then see what the LAG does. I like that better than putting in the first bet. In any case, Hero is at the precipice of pot commitment. Does he want to play for stacks vs the LAG? Is the goal profit maximization or meta game table image < could those be the same thing > ?

Let's have Hero check and see what unfolds. -=- DrStrange

PS To be fair, this turn sucks for Hero. There were plenty of bricks that would have felt better. It isn't evidence - we already knew there were 47 unknown cards in the deck and one of them was the nine of diamonds.

 

[Senzrock]

Player profiles are so important in spots like these. Good reads/strong analysis of player tendencies is what can make friendly home games *so profitable* after all. I am reading this hand history and the entire time I'm just thinking, wow a loose-aggro player is raising me on a draw heavy flop? Fist pump get it in with AA, lets go.

Few broader points related not just to this hand, but can be applied here:

1. It sounds like many of the people posting on this thread are terrified of playing a big pot with AA. I understand why. Maybe you've been hurt before. Maybe you feel some kind of shame when they do have the set and you think everyone else is silently judging you - "why wouldn't he just fold that hand, it was so obvious!". With this specific player read, I think 4-bet committing on the flop is fairly standard. If the player has a smaller diamond draw they may well fold, wondering if you have AKdd for example.

2. If you don't feel comfortable playing these spots, and find yourself pulling back from hand reading and regressing into a "oh boy, this is getting dangerous, time for me to get out of this hand," I would humbly suggest that you should move down in stakes. You should feel comfortable, in certain situations, to play your hands aggressively and embrace the variance that comes in spots like this.

3. You should be playing this hand based on your perceived range. Your perceived range includes AA but it also includes tons of hands like AK, AQ, AJ, AT etc etc. AA is actually very high up in your range, even in a multi-way pot. If I was villain, and I knew that several of the players in this game were folding AA in this spot, I would be raising you boys all night long!

4. Building on #3, if you are folding AA in this spot, can I ask you a serious question? What are you *not* folding? Just sets? you might only have 66 in your range here. That's a pretty limited continue range. Just sets + nut draws? Again, very limited. Theoretically, if you are folding AA here, and you are only calling with extremely strong hands, you are losing a ton of $ in this game.

I don't say this to critique anyone's play but a major pet peeve of mine is using past memories of losing big pots or just feelings of uncomfortableness cloud our judgement and actual hand reading. Back to the specifics of the hand, I am getting it in on the flop here, but can also call and reasses the turn. Now when the turn is a diamond and we hold no blocker, a fold to a big barrel is fine but that's why out of position I like just getting it in (and again, vs this player type, I would be happy to do so).

 

[TheWhiteJZ]

Player profiles are so important in spots like these. Good reads/strong analysis of player tendencies is what can make friendly home games *so profitable* after all. I am reading this hand history and the entire time I'm just thinking, wow a loose-aggro player is raising me on a draw heavy flop? Fist pump get it in with AA, lets go.

Few broader points related not just to this hand, but can be applied here:

1. It sounds like many of the people posting on this thread are terrified of playing a big pot with AA. I understand why. Maybe you've been hurt before. Maybe you feel some kind of shame when they do have the set and you think everyone else is silently judging you - "why wouldn't he just fold that hand, it was so obvious!". With this specific player read, I think 4-bet committing on the flop is fairly standard. If the player has a smaller diamond draw they may well fold, wondering if you have AKdd for example.

2. If you don't feel comfortable playing these spots, and find yourself pulling back from hand reading and regressing into a "oh boy, this is getting dangerous, time for me to get out of this hand," I would humbly suggest that you should move down in stakes. You should feel comfortable, in certain situations, to play your hands aggressively and embrace the variance that comes in spots like this.

3. You should be playing this hand based on your perceived range. Your perceived range includes AA but it also includes tons of hands like AK, AQ, AJ, AT etc etc. AA is actually very high up in your range, even in a multi-way pot. If I was villain, and I knew that several of the players in this game were folding AA in this spot, I would be raising you boys all night long!

4. Building on #3, if you are folding AA in this spot, can I ask you a serious question? What are you *not* folding? Just sets? you might only have 66 in your range here. That's a pretty limited continue range. Just sets + nut draws? Again, very limited. Theoretically, if you are folding AA here, and you are only calling with extremely strong hands, you are losing a ton of $ in this game.

I don't say this to critique anyone's play but a major pet peeve of mine is using past memories of losing big pots or just feelings of uncomfortableness cloud our judgement and actual hand reading. Back to the specifics of the hand, I am getting it in on the flop here, but can also call and reasses the turn. Now when the turn is a diamond and we hold no blocker, a fold to a big barrel is fine but that's why out of position I like just getting it in (and again, vs this player type, I would be happy to do so).

I neither disagree nor take offense. If it were just vs the LAG. However, there were 5 (!) callers who saw the flop and three (!) held on to the turn. Rarely does a single pair win in those situations.

Live to fight another day. Preferably in position.

 

[Hornet]

I don't recall this hand, but sucko is known to take lines like this with a flopped top pair if he thinks the board hasn't hit your range. Same with his sets and strong draws.

No way I'm folding to the raise. Definitely a shitty spot though, but I'm calling to evaluate the turn.

I hate this spot against sucko. But there is no way I’m folding to him. He does this with a pair and straight draw all day. Unlikely he flopped a monster imo because I think he plays a monster slower given the flop is not likely to have hit your range.

The question in my mind is raise or call. Will he pay for his draws? And alternatively if you call, will he attempt to blow you off your hand when any scare card comes?

I think I call, with the intention of calling or even leading on most turns.

 

[jja412]

Honestly, knowing that it's sicko...I would shove.
I haven't played on Windy for a while, but I think I have seen enough hands against him to justify this.

 

[Beakertwang]

Honestly, if I was HU with Sicko, I likely would have reraised on the flop, but with V1 in the hand, there certainly was the possibility of a set, or a flush draw or a combo draw and he wouldn't go away.

Let's finish this one out.

Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)

I have . I open to $4, which is pretty standard for me. V1 calls, MP calls, V2 calls, BB completes.

Pot $20.50

Flop

BB checks.

Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.

V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.

Hero calls, V1 calls. Pot $153.25.

Turn

Hero checks. V1 checks.

V2 bets $76. Hero can't see how he's ahead of both villains, so hero folds.

V1 shoves his last $3.25 over the top and V2 calls.

V1 shows
V2 shows for a turned double gutter.

River blanks, and V1 (@Marhault) takes down the $310.75 pot.

 

[Beakertwang]

Also...

play a tighter range (as if possible from this particular hero).

 

[Hornet]

Honestly, if I was HU with Sicko, I likely would have reraised on the flop, but with V1 in the hand, there certainly was the possibility of a set, or a flush draw or a combo draw and he wouldn't go away.

Let's finish this one out.

Hand #168445-141 - 2021-02-06 03:06:22
Game: NL Hold'em ($50 - 300) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Club 875 Poker Room
Table: Worm's Game #2 (NLHE)
SB (120)
SB(149.25)
Hero (542.50)
Villain 1 (127.50)
UTG2 (249.75)
MP (313.25)
MP1 (326)
Villain 2 (300)
CO (211.50)
BTN (120)

I have . I open to $4, which is pretty standard for me. V1 calls, MP calls, V2 calls, BB completes.

Pot $20.50

Flop

BB checks.

Figuring to be way ahead of most field callers, hero chooses to bet 1/2 pot, $10.25.

V1 calls, V2 raises to $44.25. BB folds.

Hero calls, V1 calls. Pot $153.25.

Turn

Hero checks. V1 checks.

V2 bets $76. Hero can't see how he's ahead of both villains, so hero folds.

V1 shoves his last $3.25 over the top and V2 calls.

V1 shows
V2 shows for a turned double gutter.

River blanks, and V1 (@Marhault) takes down the $310.75 pot.

Andrew!

 

[Beakertwang]

Andrew!

Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[markleteenie]

V2 did feel like aggression. Definitely tough to make that call 3 handed, but if you call, I bet V1 folds.

 

[Beakertwang]

V2 did feel like aggression. Definitely tough to make that call 3 handed, but if you call, I bet V1 folds.

Admittedly, I was so focused on V2, I wasn't paying attention to V1's stack size. I actually may have called, since I was essentially closing the action.

 

[Hornet]

Sorry to disappoint you.

Actually I’m just happy that sucko didn’t do his usual suck out. Curious as to @Marhault’s view of the hand.

 

[RainmanTrail]

What is our plan going forward? This is not directed at you specifically, but to everyone. I agree we can't just fold if V2 is a decent LAG. But even as a decent LAG, this isn't a heads up pot. He's raising and reopening the action to 3 players, 2 of which have shown interest. Hero's hands looks a lot like what it is (TT-AA) by betting the flop into 4 people. Hero could also have something like AdJd+ depending on how loose he opens.

This is where stack sizes come into play. In this situation, V2 is 300 BBs deep, and we have him covered. That's too deep for us to get into a raising war with just one pair on this flop, even if it is AA. So I would just call here. However, if he only had 100 BBs, then this would be a pretty easy shove. I'd also call again on any safe turn cards (there are a lot of them) to any reasonable sized bets (half pot ish or less maybe). If we get to the river after that and he decides to shove, then I'll let it go.

 

[Beakertwang]

V2 did feel like aggression. Definitely tough to make that call 3 handed, but if you call, I bet V1 folds.

Actually, if I called, I'd prefer the short stack to come along. It would basically shut down action on the river, since there'd be no reason to bluff.

 

[RainmanTrail]

V2 shows for a turned double gutter.

That's actually a flopped double gutter.

 

[Beakertwang]

That's actually a flopped double gutter.

As I have spoken, so shall it be.

 

[Perthmike]

I don't blame you Andrew. When the turn brings a diamond against two opponents like that, and they keep firing I'm just letting it go as well.

Shitty spot but you have to assume sucko is going to keep firing again, and he's not usually wild enough to be playing 58 like that. He must have been really on tilt.

 

[Beakertwang]

He must have been really on tilt.

That's what @Marhault said.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Seeing these hands after the fact tells you a lot about their ranges. V2 semi-bluff raised a pretty weak holding on that flop (and called with a weak holding pre-flop), then barreled through what should have been a very scary card for him on the turn. Unless this is the first hand you've played against him, a player like this should have already given us plenty of information to know how to play this hand against them on the flop. I know I certainly would have picked up enough information after probably just a couple of orbits against this type of player to know that a big reraise on the flop would have been the better play. If the 9d doesn't slow him down on the turn (especially after V1 is well beyond pot committed at this point) then this guy isn't a "crafty LAG", he's a full-blown donkey who can't wait to lose his stack. You should have had a better read on this opponent IMO, unless this was literally one of the first few hands you'd seen from him.

 

[Marhault]

For me, it was more about recent history. Sicko had lost a couple chased hands/semi bluffs and he can get spewy when that happens. I can't recall but I think he was the button which is an even more aggressive spot for him. His range on the button is super wide and this reeked of draw, and his subsequent bets were missed draw over bets.

To be fair I put Andrew on A/K which was wrong obviously so in hindsight it was a terrible play. When Andrew folded I still thought "yup I was right A/K" (again very wrong) I was so focused on sicko at the time that I didn't really pay much mind to Andrew.

I know I had no business being in this hand. Not going to argue that at all. I was more playing the player than the hand and was focused in on the wrong guy. Andrew was just the casualty playing things properly.

 

[Perthmike]

Seeing these hands after the fact tells you a lot about their ranges. V2 semi-bluff raised a pretty weak holding on that flop (and called with a weak holding pre-flop), then barreled through what should have been a very scary card for him on the turn. Unless this is the first hand you've played against him, a player like this should have already given us plenty of information to know how to play this hand against them on the flop. I know I certainly would have picked up enough information after probably just a couple of orbits against this type of player to know that a big reraise on the flop would have been the better play. If the 9d doesn't slow him down on the turn (especially after V1 is well beyond pot committed at this point) then this guy isn't a "crafty LAG", he's a full-blown donkey who can't wait to lose his stack. You should have had a better read on this opponent IMO, unless this was literally one of the first few hands you'd seen from him.

He isn't usually anywhere near this wild I have to say. Though he will definitely use scare cards to his advantage, but I'm very surprised to see his holding in this specific hand.

I was at the table though and he'd just lost a few big pots in a row. So title would be a factor.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Shitty spot but you have to assume sucko is going to keep firing again, and he's not usually wild enough to be playing 58 like that. He must have been really on tilt.

Most LAGs are calling with hands like on the button in a multiway pot 300 BBs deep. Just ask @kmccormick100. There's no scenario whatsoever where he's folding this hand pre-flop in this same spot.

 

[Perthmike]

Most LAGs are calling with hands like on the button in a multiway pot 300 BBs deep. Just ask @kmccormick100. There's no scenario whatsoever where he's folding this hand pre-flop in this same spot.

He will definitely play it, but I don't usually expect his flop raising range to include that hand.

I'm never folding the flop, but I'm considering a fold by the turn, particularly with another villain calling.

Heads-up would be different, but my personal experience with sucko, he isn't usually getting too aggro. When I make it to showdown he's usually strong.

He is definitely the type of player to change this strategy to suit his opponents though.

 

[Marhault]

I don't blame you Andrew. When the turn brings a diamond against two opponents like that, and they keep firing I'm just letting it go as well.

Shitty spot but you have to assume sucko is going to keep firing again, and he's not usually wild enough to be playing 58 like that. He must have been really on tilt.

He had lost at least 2 buy ins at that point so yes my view was he was on tilt. He got hero called multiple times that night on his missed draws or low pairs so I think it was getting to him as he usually doesn't get called much in those situations (especially since most of the calls were on super wet boards and the hero caller only had a top pair at best almost every time)

 

[kmccormick100]

Most LAGs are calling with hands like on the button in a multiway pot 300 BBs deep. Just ask @kmccormick100. There's no scenario whatsoever where he's folding this hand pre-flop in this same spot.

Suited gappers can be expensive to play, but also oh so sneaky when they connect. I love raising double gutters on low flops with flush like that, because when they hit you get to stack people with overpairs when the flush draw misses.

Back to your play, I actually don’t hate a check call line on the flop, it whiffs your EP raising range especially 5 ways. A small 1/3 pot bet also folds out some hands and lets you continue on a little cheaper when you get raised - I think folding to a single raise on a low draw heavy board is too tight. I’m insta mucking when the flush draw comes in on the turn after the raise gets called in two spots, I expect one villain to have the flush there like 90% of the time unless they’re completely maniacal. Results oriented this fold hurts, but I’m folding it 9/10 times I think.