Tournament Hand - Early Stages (1 Viewer)

[grebe]

Pot is approximately 16k.

River brings:


UTG thinks for a moment and the announces ALL IN for approximately 8500.
Action on hero.

There is no decision to be made...you call. You are getting 4:1, your hand beats all bluffs and a good deal of value. Hero played like a fish the whole way and I hope he loses to a straight.

 

[Senzrock]

Yes, hell yes, praise Jesus!
In the early rounds of a short tournament with rebuys available, people flat everything pre. I actually hate when I get KK in this situation. You can raise 5x pre and get 5 callers. Then what?
I know it sounds stupid, but in almost every situation where I get playable cards early in this tournament, I’m flatting, and either playing post-flop poker, or hoping to get lucky, depending on who I’m up against.

As played, the chips have to all go in here. And get out your wallet because somebody flopped it, probably the button.

Ha ha. I try, even in these games where everyone calls everything, to make my opponents define their hands a bit. That means that if there are limpers and I pick up a monster, the only reason to smooth call is the trap an aggressive player behind me who I think has a decent chance of raising in position so that I can get lots of chips in pre. Otherwise, I like large sizing. A raise like 500 with a limp already in front of us is just way too small I'm afraid. 800-1k sounds nice to me.

 

[grebe]

I know it sounds stupid, but in almost every situation where I get playable cards early in this tournament, I’m flatting, and either playing post-flop poker, or hoping to get lucky, depending on who I’m up against.

I disagree with this mentality. Would you play like this in a loose cash game? My mentality early in tournaments is play very tight, then punish limpers when I have a hand. Of course, UTG1 makes this harder to do, but this is the same way I would play cash game as well, and early stages of a tournament where stacks are 100 BB's and players feel splashy, I play TAG.

Also, if you go to a pot multi-way, just remember even with AA, you do not need to win 50% of the pots to be profitable. If you go 4 ways and win 30%, you are doing well.

 

[grebe]

A raise like 500 with a limp already in front of us is just way too small I'm afraid. 800-1k sounds nice to me.

I agree with this...I said 500 and I was wrong. When I am playing, I vary my sizing based on a couple factors...
-how big can I make it and get exactly one caller based on history at the table? (for example, if I am playing 1/2 at the card room, my standard open is probably around $15 from EP, because that seems to be the number where people take notice)
-How early am I in the action?
-how deep are stacks? (the less big blinds, the smaller I raise)
-how is the table playing? Lots of cold calls...I make it bigger. Lots of 3 betting? I make it smaller.
***I DO NOT EVER change this based on my hand strength.

 

[upNdown]

I disagree with this mentality. Would you play like this in a loose cash game?

No, because cash games are different.

I’m not sure I’m right, for this one. I developed that strategy while playing a weekly turbo tournament that included two rebuys and an add-on. I decided the only way to beat that game on the long run, was to only fire a single bullet. I’m pretty sure that strategy was right for that game, but it probably doesn’t translate directly to many other situations.

 

[MrCatPants]

Lets bring it home, and then a couple questions in a subsequent post. Based on the cards, there's no way this doesn't end up with a 3 way all in. But, how it should have gotten there (and could the set of Jacks find a fold on the river?) could/should have been much different?

Context: 8 handed, single table tourney - first event of our league season so "points" are on the line in addition to the prize pool for the event. Two places paid. Early stages (level 4 - 75/150). Initial stacks are 15k, and everyone is still close to that number. Event is limited to one rebuy maximum - no rebuys yet.

SB - me, not relevant to the hand - 14k
BB - LAG, plays suited trash and low connectors sometimes with raising when he feels saucy; competent player - 16k
UTG - Maniac pre, but competent LAG post flop - 14k
UTG + 1 (Our Hero) - Tighter player who is newer to poker but studies, sometimes expects high stakes principles to apply at low stakes games (he's too sticky) - 14k
MP - Strong TAG, hates tournaments though so keeps suggesting everyone goes all in so we can play a cash game already - 16k
CO - a 40 year old OMC, barely know he's there - 15k
HJ - ABC player who bluffs in position a little too often - 15k
BTN - ABC player who exhibits a little bit too much stickiness - 16k

UTG limps for 150
Hero looks down at and raises to 600
MP CALLS
CO folds
HJ folds
BTN CALLS
SB folds
BB folds
UTG CALLS

Pot is 2475, and 4 players go to a flop of:


UTG leads for 1100
Hero calls 1100
MP folds
BTN calls 1100

turn brings:


UTG leads out for 3500
Hero CALLS for 3500
Button snap calls

Pot is approximately 16k.

River brings:


UTG thinks for a moment and the announces ALL IN for approximately 8500.
Hero sigh calls.
Button says "All In" but it's determined UTG covers hero so there's no additional action necessary.

UTG turns over
Button turns over and triples up.

Hero and UTG rebuy.

 

[MrCatPants]

So my questions:

How would you have changed UTG's line (if at all?)
How would you have changed button's line (if at all?)

 

[raynmanas]

Action on hero.

hero calls but should have never been making this decision on the river. REBUY TABLE 1

 

[raynmanas]

So my questions:

How would you have changed UTG's line (if at all?)
How would you have changed button's line (if at all?)

UTG played it fine.
Button should have raised flop.

 

[Legend5555]

UTG played it fine.
Button should have raised flop.

Agreed, though I don't usually advocate for leading into the PFR from the blinds, so I'll disagree on that point. But button should def not have slowplayed the flop. He can rep sets and naked As by raising flop, plus it gets more money in before a possible 4 spade or board pair comes. Both are bad and would very much seem to hit the bettor and caller given the flop play

But slow players gotta be slow players.

I would have folded river with the set, it basically has to be that the guy leading every street into you or the caller behind has a flush. And no one is folding any flush here ever.

 

[Legend5555]

Side note...

Playing with a gamble mentality during a rebuy period is not the way to win the most money long term IMO. It can be a better way to win the whole thing. But especially in turboish home game tournaments, stacks are so short by the end that none of that extra pickup in the early game matters all that much.

Don't play bad just because you can rebuy.

 

[MrCatPants]

I would have folded river with the set, it basically has to be that the guy leading every street into you or the caller behind has a flush. And no one is folding any flush here ever.

That was my argument to him as well. UTG is never triple barreling into two players without having flush. And button, given that top set is locked up, is never calling through without at least the naked . I think you're beat here by one or both about 90%+ of the time.

 

[raynmanas]

Agreed, though I don't usually advocate for leading into the PFR from the blinds, so I'll disagree on that point.

These bets certainly have their place. The only question is are you likely to win more or lost more doing it in any given situation. IMO flopping the nuts is a fine time to lead into a PFR. Sure, they might just fold, but for the times they are willing to play back into you, cha-ching.

 

[Senzrock]

Side note...

Playing with a gamble mentality during a rebuy period is not the way to win the most money long term IMO. It can be a better way to win the whole thing. But especially in turboish home game tournaments, stacks are so short by the end that none of that extra pickup in the early game matters all that much.

Don't play bad just because you can rebuy.

The counter argument to this is that, although yes stacks are shallow, the difference between heading into the freezeout period of the tournament with 32k vs 12k actually does matter a lot. That 12k stack feels the pressure of the turbo structure immensely once rebuys end.

 

[raynmanas]

Playing with a gamble mentality during a rebuy period is not the way to win the most money long term IMO. It can be a better way to win the whole thing. But especially in turboish home game tournaments, stacks are so short by the end that none of that extra pickup in the early game matters all that much.

The point is to get a big enough stack to get to the end. If I have a decent shot to start with a 2x stack over everyone else, you're goddamn right I'm going to try. I'll play TAG on my rebuy.

 

[Senzrock]

Lets bring it home, and then a couple questions in a subsequent post. Based on the cards, there's no way this doesn't end up with a 3 way all in. But, how it should have gotten there (and could the set of Jacks find a fold on the river?) could/should have been much different?

Context: 8 handed, single table tourney - first event of our league season so "points" are on the line in addition to the prize pool for the event. Two places paid. Early stages (level 4 - 75/150). Initial stacks are 15k, and everyone is still close to that number. Event is limited to one rebuy maximum - no rebuys yet.

SB - me, not relevant to the hand - 14k
BB - LAG, plays suited trash and low connectors sometimes with raising when he feels saucy; competent player - 16k
UTG - Maniac pre, but competent LAG post flop - 14k
UTG + 1 (Our Hero) - Tighter player who is newer to poker but studies, sometimes expects high stakes principles to apply at low stakes games (he's too sticky) - 14k
MP - Strong TAG, hates tournaments though so keeps suggesting everyone goes all in so we can play a cash game already - 16k
CO - a 40 year old OMC, barely know he's there - 15k
HJ - ABC player who bluffs in position a little too often - 15k
BTN - ABC player who exhibits a little bit too much stickiness - 16k

UTG limps for 150
Hero looks down at and raises to 600
MP CALLS
CO folds
HJ folds
BTN CALLS
SB folds
BB folds
UTG CALLS

Pot is 2475, and 4 players go to a flop of:


UTG leads for 1100
Hero calls 1100
MP folds
BTN calls 1100

turn brings:


UTG leads out for 3500
Hero CALLS for 3500
Button snap calls

Pot is approximately 16k.

River brings:


UTG thinks for a moment and the announces ALL IN for approximately 8500.
Hero sigh calls.
Button says "All In" but it's determined UTG covers hero so there's no additional action necessary.

UTG turns over
Button turns over and triples up.

Hero and UTG rebuy.

These hands, in the end, are kind of the least interesting to me personally. Just a cooler with three incredibly strong hands that can't go any other way. In this game, I doubt anyone is ever folding. What you are really asking when you pose this question is: Can (or should?) top set find a fold earlier when they are getting coolered in this situation? My answer would be 1. No. and 2. We should not be looking for "exit strategies" in these setup situations because long term it actually hurts our game more than it helps it.

Either way, a raise on the flop is clearly the best play. At that point you will know whether or not your hand is good, and if you want to play super tight, then you can make that decision there, not on the river where we don't have much of a choice anymore.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Legend5555]

The counter argument to this is that, although yes stacks are shallow, the difference between heading into the freezeout period of the tournament with 32k vs 12k actually does matter a lot. That 12k stack feels the pressure of the turbo structure immensely once rebuys end.

I think a lot of that comes out in the wash or on the negative side for all but the best players that gamble due to rebuys. Kind of hard to get data on this though.

The old school rebuy is gone and today's re-entry style tournaments are a bit different. Since you have to go completely bust and can't just add on below a certain threshold, every buy in should be thought of as a new tournament that you are buying into late. The fact that it happens to be the same tournament is irrelevant. Thus, for sure with the standard re-entry tournaments, gambling is just silly.

 

[MrCatPants]

These hands, in the end, are kind of the least interesting to me personally. Just a cooler with three incredibly strong hands that can't go any other way. In this game, I doubt anyone is ever folding. What you are really asking when you pose this question is: Can (or should?) top set find a fold earlier when they are getting coolered in this situation? My answer would be 1. No. and 2. We should not be looking for "exit strategies" in these setup situations because long term it actually hurts our game more than it helps it.

Either way, a raise on the flop is clearly the best play. At that point you will know whether or not your hand is good, and if you want to play super tight, then you can make that decision there, not on the river where we don't have much of a choice anymore.

Thanks for sharing!

I agree set should have gotten money in earlier. It seems to be a better +EV play long term against the ranges early in the hand.

Didn't post it for the "escape" logic - the outcomes here were inevitable for the most part - more so about the lines that should have been taken by each player to get there.

That said, as played, as mentioned above I think I'd have found a fold on the river. Was curious others thoughts.

You have an opinion on button's line?

 

[upNdown]

I think a lot of that comes out in the wash or on the negative side for all but the best players that gamble due to rebuys. Kind of hard to get data on this though.

The old school rebuy is gone and today's re-entry style tournaments are a bit different. Since you have to go completely bust and can't just add on below a certain threshold, every buy in should be thought of as a new tournament that you are buying into late. The fact that it happens to be the same tournament is irrelevant. Thus, for sure with the standard re-entry tournaments, gambling is just silly.

Especially if you're talking about a single table tournament. It's pretty tough to get to profit, if you're paying twice as much as everybody else, when first place may only be 5x a buyin - you might need 2nd place just to break even.

 

[JMC9389]

I agree set should have gotten money in earlier. It seems to be a better +EV play long term against the ranges early in the hand.

Didn't post it for the "escape" logic - the outcomes here were inevitable for the most part - more so about the lines that should have been taken by each player to get there.

That said, as played, as mentioned above I think I'd have found a fold on the river. Was curious others thoughts.

You have an opinion on button's line?

Button played this poorly actually. Suited ace in position is an easy raise, IMO. They lucked out with the run out big time. They got max value from top set and a lower flush. Flush over flush is rare to begin with and not too many other hands besides flushes and top or middle set in UTG and hero's range continue on that flop.

Smooth calling instead of snap calling the turn should have cost them value on the river but didn't.

Alarm bells would be going off in my head with both UTG leading and button calling. I'm not sure I would have found a fold as hero, but I would have gotten it in way behind anyway on the flop.

Rebuy!

 

[upNdown]

Button played this poorly actually. Suited ace in position is an easy raise, IMO.

But it's already been raised. You can certainly 3-bet that suited A9 in that situation, but I wouldn't call it an easy raise.

 

[grebe]

UTG played it fine.
Button should have raised flop.

UTG did not play it fine. He should have folded pre. This hand is garbage UTG.

 

[JMC9389]

But it's already been raised. You can certainly 3-bet that suited A9 in that situation, but I wouldn't call it an easy raise.

You're right, my mistake.

If it's a loose table, a three bet is fine. So is flatting to a three bet elsewhere.

Either way, unlucky for top set. Totally with @grebe here. WTF is UTG doing here?

 

[MrCatPants]

You're right, my mistake.

If it's a loose table, a three bet is fine. So is flatting to a three bet elsewhere.

Either way, unlucky for top set. Totally with @grebe here. WTF is UTG doing here?

It's how he rolls. Sometimes decides to play shit cards.

 

[grebe]

River brings:


UTG thinks for a moment and the announces ALL IN for approximately 8500.
Hero sigh calls.
Button says "All In" but it's determined UTG covers hero so there's no additional action necessary.

UTG turns over
Button turns over and triples up.

Hero and UTG rebuy.

This hand is a cooler.

UTG is a fish...he might get lucky from time to time and build up a massive stack, but limping UTG with this trash is not winning very often. "Maniac" is not a term of endearment.

Hero is a passive fish. I dont think there is any way he gets away here, but still. There are many other hands these two could have had that he would NOT have gotten value from....it just so happens they flopped as well as they did.

Button's play is the only one that I can get behind.....maybe I would have raised the turn to charge two pairs and sets, but I don't have any issues with how he played...as long as he can get away from his hand when an Ace flops and he sees significant action.

I would be vary wary to start changing how I play a wet board when flopping top set because of results like this. I huge majority of the time, you will be ahead and will be able to get action from many hands....playing passively will lose you money in the long run.

 

[grebe]

It's how he rolls. Sometimes decides to play shit cards.

Dog bless him for it, too.

Also, as a 3 bet from the button is not a good play preflop from significant action from both UTG and UTG1. You are never ahead here on any call or raise. I just can't think of any way this is profitable....the only way you win is if you flop trip 9's or a flush. Every other flop, you are behind all the ranges.

 

[MrCatPants]

Dog bless him for it, too.

Yup. He's also why I instituted my 1 rebuy rule this season. He ended up my top points guy last season, but also my second highest number of rebuys by a country mile.

 

[raynmanas]

UTG did not play it fine. He should have folded pre. This hand is garbage UTG.

fair point, i was not taking preflop play into account. but i still don't completely hate the play pre-flop. the PFR went too small so it's cheap and easy to get away from. i like looking for big scores cheap early in a tournament. i think people get too married to ABC GTO poker. tournaments have a lot more risk/reward going on than a solver is going to tell you.

(and i do realize this is going to be another unpopular opinion)

 

[grebe]

fair point, i was not taking preflop play into account. but i still don't completely hate the play pre-flop. the PFR went too small so it's cheap and easy to get away from. i like looking for big scores cheap early in a tournament. i think people get too married to ABC GTO poker. tournaments have a lot more risk/reward going on than a solver is going to tell you.

(and i do realize this is going to be another unpopular opinion)

I don't play with solvers, but I understand the general basics of GTO. I don't think there is anything GTO-style going on here though.

The problem with the strategy of playing 64s as a limp UTG is that you are inviting the world to come along and not considering the concept of reverse implied odds....which means, when you hit your monster and are not good because somebody else hit the bigger monster. This hand is a perfect example of that because you catch your flush, but the button caught the nuts. Also, say we flop trips...we have to be good, right? Unless button limped behind with A6 and we are out kicked. Nah, this hand out of position is an EASY fold.

 

[raynmanas]

I don't play with solvers, but I understand the general basics of GTO. I don't think there is anything GTO-style going on here though.

The problem with the strategy of playing 64s as a limp UTG is that you are inviting the world to come along and not considering the concept of reverse implied odds....which means, when you hit your monster and are not good because somebody else hit the bigger monster. This hand is a perfect example of that because you catch your flush, but the button caught the nuts. Also, say we flop trips...we have to be good, right? Unless button limped behind with A6 and we are out kicked. Nah, this hand out of position is an EASY fold.

wow, I'm an idiot. I thought UTG has the A9 this whole time. UTG played this hand terribly lol.

that is also why i thought button should have raised flop, to see if his shitty 64 flush was already good.

my bad!