Tourney Strat: Pocket 7s in the SB facing a button shove (1 Viewer)

[JoseRijo]

So what happened?

 

[Forty4]

So what happened?

I'm sure the guy folded. It's more fun to think in the hypothetical when you don't know the answer.

 

[stocky]

Just asked a friend of mine who is one of the top pros out there IMO (has several million in profits, has won the PokerStars Sunday Million, triple crown winner, numerous 6 figure cashes, lots of big tourney wins, has been on the cover of CardPlayer, blah blah blah). The point is, he's good... damn good, and he's a lot better than I am. He's also fairly nittish. Not a super nit, but I would have thought for sure he's folding in this spot. He responded with "Easy reshove". Then after I informed him I said easy fold, he followed up with...

"Lol. Well people often feel shorter in live poker and will make bad shoves with hands like A2o in mid position for 15BBs. But I mean, even online, its a shove. But ya, either way. Gotta get it in."

So, I will concede that I must be wrong here.

Don't tell me we disagree again already

To me I think it's really close but still lean to a fold. The problem I have is the feeling that button is probably shoving with a wide range. With his position and stack, yes he SHOULD have quite a wide range, but without more info it's hard to say this. Knowing what he did during his blinds would help a lot.

Eg. Say villain is sb and its folded around to him. Theoretically shouldn't he be shoving here also? If he folded wouldn't this say a bit more about his range?

Or say he'd shoved once or even twice during the last orbit without a call. Then one could possibly assume he is shoving a wider range.

 

[manamongkids]

Just asked a friend of mine who is one of the top pros out there IMO (has several million in profits, has won the PokerStars Sunday Million, triple crown winner, numerous 6 figure cashes, lots of big tourney wins, has been on the cover of CardPlayer, blah blah blah). The point is, he's good... damn good, and he's a lot better than I am. He's also fairly nittish. Not a super nit, but I would have thought for sure he's folding in this spot. He responded with "Easy reshove". Then after I informed him I said easy fold, he followed up with...

"Lol. Well people often feel shorter in live poker and will make bad shoves with hands like A2o in mid position for 15BBs. But I mean, even online, its a shove. But ya, either way. Gotta get it in."

So, I will concede that I must be wrong here.

I also have this friend, who considers himself a former pro, lets call him RT. He was very convincing that we should fold in this spot, so I'm not sure who we should side with here

 

[stocky]

I'm sure the guy folded. It's more fun to think in the hypothetical when you don't know the answer.

Also I think he calls. What type of convo goes. "I had 77 last night but folded to a shove" unless followed up by "bb called and I would've flopped quads"

 

[JoseRijo]

I can't believe a pro poker player could advocate a fold here without ICM implications. You're 50/50 vs the top 20% of hands. That's a ridiculously narrow range for a button open to begin with, let alone with only 10BBs. Versus 50%, you are 58-42. I don't see what better spot one could have.

 

[BGinGA]

Assuming that BB comes along in an attempt to nearly triple up, where does 77 stand against two random hands? or vs one random hand and a 50% hand (button)?

 

[RainmanTrail]

I also have this friend, who considers himself a former pro, lets call him RT. He was very convincing that we should fold in this spot, so I'm not sure who we should side with here

Tell RT to f off. That guy sucks!

 

[RainmanTrail]

Don't tell me we disagree again already

To me I think it's really close but still lean to a fold. The problem I have is the feeling that button is probably shoving with a wide range. With his position and stack, yes he SHOULD have quite a wide range, but without more info it's hard to say this. Knowing what he did during his blinds would help a lot.

Eg. Say villain is sb and its folded around to him. Theoretically shouldn't he be shoving here also? If he folded wouldn't this say a bit more about his range?

Or say he'd shoved once or even twice during the last orbit without a call. Then one could possibly assume he is shoving a wider range.

I'd say we're still in agreement. I'm still folding if I think I have 55% equity in this spot. However, I'm in agreement with my friend if he's right about the villain having a wider range than I'm giving him credit for. I will say though, he's pretty good at knowing people's ranges. I've sat with him playing online countless times and discussed similar situations with him. He has a good eye for this stuff. Plus, he's still playing full time, and it's been about 4 years or so since I was playing full time, and the game has changed since then. Players are looser today than they use to be, so that's why I said I'll admit that I'm wrong on this one. He would know better what their ranges are than I would. But to me, this is the key variable in the decision to shove or fold: namely, what is the button's shoving range? I think if you put the range you think he's shoving with into PokerStove and calculate your equity against that range, and if it's anywhere near 60% or more, then you have your answer. But if it's more like 55%, then you have a different answer. That's how I would approach it. But after talking with him last night about the hand, I do think he's right.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I can't believe a pro poker player could advocate a fold here without ICM implications. You're 50/50 vs the top 20% of hands. That's a ridiculously narrow range for a button open to begin with, let alone with only 10BBs. Versus 50%, you are 58-42. I don't see what better spot one could have.

I guess that's the question we're debating, or at least should be. Which is do you think the button is shoving 50% of his hands here with a 10BB stack? Personally, if I'm the button, I'm shoving more than half my hands. I'm probably shoving at least 65% of my hands with 9BBs on the button, and depending on who's in the blinds and what their stack sizes are, I could be shoving any two cards. If the average Joe has improved his game enough to invoke similar strategies, then yes, we have to reshove here. I was just unaware that this was the case before. My friend says it is. I now believe him.

 

[BGinGA]

If the button is mojo, you're up against KK or AA, period.

 

[manamongkids]

I guess that's the question we're debating, or at least should be. Which is do you think the button is shoving 50% of his hands here with a 10BB stack? Personally, if I'm the button, I'm shoving more than half my hands. I'm probably shoving at least 65% of my hands with 9BBs on the button, and depending on who's in the blinds and what their stack sizes are, I could be shoving any two cards. If the average Joe has improved his game enough to invoke similar strategies, then yes, we have to reshove here. I was just unaware that this was the case before. My friend says it is. I now believe him.

google push fold charts, it will show what MTT pros consider to be the proper hands to be push/folding with 10bbs and in what position you should be push folding with what hands

 

[jbutler]

I can't believe a pro poker player could advocate a fold here without ICM implications. You're 50/50 vs the top 20% of hands. That's a ridiculously narrow range for a button open to begin with, let alone with only 10BBs. Versus 50%, you are 58-42. I don't see what better spot one could have.

Jose, you're forgetting that if BTN has an underpair and catches quads, we lose. Gotta consider that.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

google push fold charts, it will show what MTT pros consider to be the proper hands to be push/folding with 10bbs and in what position you should be push folding with what hands

I guess it went to the wayside but I put 77 against the push fold range on the button with 10BB and we have 58.57% against that range.

 

[stocky]

@jbutler wtf happened

 

[jbutler]

77 jammed. Button had JJ. Cooler imo.

 

[Mojo1312]

Jose, you're forgetting that if BTN has an underpair and catches quads, we lose. Gotta consider that.

*ucking right. I would have folded.

FWIW, I only shove from the button when I am holding Aces.

 

[ballefrans]

I am surprised to see so many people saying fold. This looks like a clear shove to me. Only read the first page of posts. Now i have to read on to see results