OP
OP
Thanks very much! Great info.
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Ultrasonic Chip Cleaning (22 Viewers)
- Thread starter ski_ex5
- Start date
NotRealNameNoSir
4 of a Kind
We appreciate you!It just occurred to me… The irony of this whole thing for me is that, by the time I finally get the process and procedure optimized for awesomeness, I won’t have any more dirty chips to clean!
This is my go to on Hot Stamps with stains or vinyl inlays, paper inlays don't soak ever.
OP
OP
One of the things I was planning to try, in an effort to reduce time in the Dawn solution pre-soak, yet without reducing effectiveness:
An ultrasonic bath in the Dawn solution. Maybe something on the order of a half hour to an hour, and *WITHOUT* using the cylindrical “chip cage” from the salad spinner! Can’t you just see all the suds from THAT all over the kitchen (or other work area)?! My future ex-wife would be furious!
Anyway, if any of you happen to have already done this static ultrasonic bath in Dawn solution, let me know so I don’t waste any time!
Dawn in a ultra wont do anything. It's been tested. The ultra pretty much makes the dawn useless.One of the things I was planning to try, in an effort to reduce time in the Dawn solution pre-soak, yet without reducing effectiveness:
An ultrasonic bath in the Dawn solution. Maybe something on the order of a half hour to an hour, and *WITHOUT* using the cylindrical “chip cage” from the salad spinner! Can’t you just see all the suds from THAT all over the kitchen (or other work area)?! My future ex-wife would be furious!
Anyway, if any of you happen to have already done this static ultrasonic bath in Dawn solution, let me know so I don’t waste any time!
OP
OP
Unless there’s something else going on that I’m not aware of (which is entirely possible), it’s the FOAM created by agitated Dawn that would cause the problem.
Foam is THE EFFECTIVENESS KILLER for ultrasonic cleaning. The kinetic energy from the ultrasonic transducers simply gets wasted compressing the foam bubbles, rather than passing through a non-foamed water based cleaning solution (water being damn near completely uncompressible) to impact and clean your chips.
I’m *hoping* that by not using the rotating chip cage, the Dawn solution in the ultrasonic won’t foam. My aim is to get the excellent results of the 12 hour Dawn pre-soak without the “12 hours” part, thereby hopefully avoiding the “cleaning solution under the inlays” part.
All that said, if I had some filthy HOT STAMP chips, and no ultrasonic, I’d put them in a room temperature bath of 1 tablespoon Dawn to 1 cup of distilled water. Gently stir/flip/rotate the chips every half hour or so, and after about 12 hours, you’ll probably find that nearly all the black gunk and dirt is gone. You might even try 1 tablespoon of Dawn in 1 cup of hydrogen peroxide - though I have NOT tried this yet! AGAIN - DO NOT do this, or anything like it, with ASM/CPC chips!!!
Clean chippies. I used 1/2 strength metasilicate solution from what I used to (1tbsp/2L), and things look quite clean still without fading. Going to oil them anyways, but J thought I'd let people know.
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OP
OP
Nice! Do you have any “BEFORE” photos?
No, but truth be told they weren't that dirty to start with, just being cautious.
paulkersey
Two Pair
I'm surprised/curious as to why you're continuing to try different pre-soak methods. I'm a little skittish after you mentioned that the Dawn solution worked its way under the inlays of some of the chips. I guess you're trying to find the right combo that won't do that.
@allforcharity was it a brisk 30-45 seconds in the machine, quick dip in distilled water, and then immediately out of the water?
@allforcharity was it a brisk 30-45 seconds in the machine, quick dip in distilled water, and then immediately out of the water?
paulkersey
Two Pair
Stupid question, but have you tried a quick Dawn pre-soak (to avoid label disruption), followed by US with maybe a weaker strength metasilicate solution?
It was 1 minute in the machine, quick dip in rinse water (does not need to be distilled), then a quick towel dry before transfer onto different towel to air dry for a few hours. I don't pre-soak in anything.
I have never had water penetration issues under inlay with cleaning. I only know about oil penetration issues when overoiling and then leaving them to sit that way.
OP
OP
Exactly. I’m looking for a pre-soak that doesn’t get under the inlays, but DOES perform an effective job of dissolving the worst of the black gunk, such that the subsequent ultrasonic cleaning in the super secret solution (
for now anyway) is 100% effective, or at least, close to 100%.Not at all a stupid question! The short answer is no, I have not. The reason I haven’t is that the soak in the static Dawn solution takes several hours before you start to notice a difference (and I mean “several” in the old-school definition of the word, as in 5-9).
That said, I *might* try shorter Dawn soaks in the future, but only if three other things I’m trying fail. However, I’m not going to try a weaker strength sodium metasilicate, because I’m working to find something that’s very effective in cleaning really filthy gunky chips, yet without fading. If you have chips like those of allforcharity’s CDIs that “aren’t that dirty”, the weaker strength might be a good option for you. I expect to have something better when I’m finished, though, that will be safer than any sodium metasilicate or real TSP ultrasonic bath, and WAY WAY safer than Oxiclean (which I gather some people are unfortunately still using).
I’ve never had water penetration issues under inlays, either, when the water DID NOT contain any surfactants like Dawn.
I HAVE also ruined the appearance of some chip inlays with REGULAR mineral oil. It’s not that hard to do.
I HAVE NOT had a single problem oiling chips with J&J GEL, and I’ve oiled something close to 100k chips (maybe more).
OP
OP
#fulldisclosure
Well, I’m having a confused and embarrassing moment…
I MAY have been wrong about the 12 hour pre-soak in Dawn getting under the inlays of the O’Shea’s and Fremont $1 chips.
Here’s the photo I shared with you yesterday, albeit without the hand drawn green arrows to point at what I thought was liquid under the inlays:
HERE are two photos of the same chips, in the same orientation, taken just a few minutes ago (it’s worth noting the O’Shea’s chips have been oiled and the Fremonts have not):
It seems that either one of the two things happened:
It’s also hard for me to believe #2, because in past experience, it takes a long time (months or even years) for the liquid to evaporate from under an inlay.
I think I need to re-test this. The Dawn pre-soak was SO effective at removing the worst of the gunk prior to ultrasonic cleaning, I hate to give up on it if there’s a chance it didn’t really cause damage.
p.s. For any of you paying close attention to the photos, yes, I’m also embarrassed that I missed the black gunk in the “S” and the “H” on the left side of the O’Shea’s chip. (EDIT: I noticed that black gunk was NOT in the original photo from yesterday, so I just checked, and found that those two bits of gunk very easily came out in one piece each when poked with a toothpick. It must have been some free floating pieces of gunk that landed in there in the ultrasonic.)
Well, I’m having a confused and embarrassing moment…
I MAY have been wrong about the 12 hour pre-soak in Dawn getting under the inlays of the O’Shea’s and Fremont $1 chips.
Here’s the photo I shared with you yesterday, albeit without the hand drawn green arrows to point at what I thought was liquid under the inlays:
HERE are two photos of the same chips, in the same orientation, taken just a few minutes ago (it’s worth noting the O’Shea’s chips have been oiled and the Fremonts have not):
It seems that either one of the two things happened:
- The solution on the *outside* of the chips in the original photo fooled me into thinking liquid had worked its way *under* the inlays.
- Liquid DID work its way under the inlays, BUT, it has since evaporated.
It’s also hard for me to believe #2, because in past experience, it takes a long time (months or even years) for the liquid to evaporate from under an inlay.
I think I need to re-test this. The Dawn pre-soak was SO effective at removing the worst of the gunk prior to ultrasonic cleaning, I hate to give up on it if there’s a chance it didn’t really cause damage.
p.s. For any of you paying close attention to the photos, yes, I’m also embarrassed that I missed the black gunk in the “S” and the “H” on the left side of the O’Shea’s chip.
(EDIT: I noticed that black gunk was NOT in the original photo from yesterday, so I just checked, and found that those two bits of gunk very easily came out in one piece each when poked with a toothpick. It must have been some free floating pieces of gunk that landed in there in the ultrasonic.)
Soaking chips with inlays in any liquid solution risks seepage under the inlays. Period.
Some inlays are more prone to this type of damage than others, but the risk is always there (regardless of solution composition) due to capillary action.
The seepage may eventually evaporate, but if the solution isn't perfectly clear (aka has been made dirty from chip contaminates), the inlay may still show evidence of being previosly soaked.
Some inlays are more prone to this type of damage than others, but the risk is always there (regardless of solution composition) due to capillary action.
The seepage may eventually evaporate, but if the solution isn't perfectly clear (aka has been made dirty from chip contaminates), the inlay may still show evidence of being previosly soaked.
There isn't a label (especially paper) that it's not gonna be a massive risk.
What the fuck has happened to us where we are now agreeing on chip safety and process. Boy how the times have changed.
I have no personal knowlege on the effects of soaking potato chips, although I suspect it ends badly. Soaking a raw potato is fine, however.
Very similar to clay chips.
THEY BECOME POWDER. PISS ME OFF.
OP
OP
I think it’s nearly inarguable that there’s always a risk. However, in my experience, the risk varies from EXTREMELY LOW to EXTREMELY HIGH, depending upon the inlay type and the liquid.
In my experience, the highest probability of causing seepage is using regular mineral oil on chips with just about any type of inlay. To be clear, that has been a probability (over 50%) whenever I’ve tried it. It was likely close to 80%, actually. I ruined some very nice chips.
I would strongly agree that paper labels are a higher risk, simply because of the porosity of paper.
I would respectfully but strongly disagree with, “There isn't a label that it's not gonna be a massive risk.” I assume that by “massive” you mean that seepage is at least probable (defined as greater than 50% of occurrence).
The reason I strongly disagree, is that in my experience of ultrasonic cleaning using various solutions (mostly the Lundmark) on chips with non-paper labels (probably around 75,000 such chips cleaned), I’ve had ZERO seepage. That’s not to say it isn’t possible, but it’s been nowhere near to probable for me.
Agree or disagree, it's there. There are reasons I don't use the ultrasonic anymore or do soaks except peroxide on Hot Stamps.
OP
OP
Earlier this morning, I completed the re-testing of soaking chips for 12 hours in a Dawn solution (1 tablespoon Dawn in 1 cup distilled water).
I didn’t see any signs of the Dawn solution seeping under the inlays, but I’ll let you look at the BEFORE and AFTER photos to judge for yourself.
There are three photos each of BEFORE and AFTER, all showing the same side of the chips. If you really want to scrutinize them, I find it useful to save them to an album on my iPad so that I can very quickly flip back and forth between the BEFORE and AFTER photos of a given angle.
BEFORE:
AFTER:
@BGinGA, @Josh Kifer, and others: Please weigh in if you see something that concerns you. I value your opinions, *especially* when they differ from my own!
The static Dawn soak did a pretty good job again of removing a lot (but not all!) of the gunk.
Immediately after I took the photos above, I tossed the chips back into the Dawn solution to go possibly up to another 12 hours. I’m interested to see if it will finish removing the gunk, and if there will be any seepage under the inlays, or even maybe an adverse effect on the hot stamps.
I didn’t see any signs of the Dawn solution seeping under the inlays, but I’ll let you look at the BEFORE and AFTER photos to judge for yourself.
There are three photos each of BEFORE and AFTER, all showing the same side of the chips. If you really want to scrutinize them, I find it useful to save them to an album on my iPad so that I can very quickly flip back and forth between the BEFORE and AFTER photos of a given angle.
BEFORE:
AFTER:
@BGinGA, @Josh Kifer, and others: Please weigh in if you see something that concerns you. I value your opinions, *especially* when they differ from my own!
The static Dawn soak did a pretty good job again of removing a lot (but not all!) of the gunk.
Immediately after I took the photos above, I tossed the chips back into the Dawn solution to go possibly up to another 12 hours. I’m interested to see if it will finish removing the gunk, and if there will be any seepage under the inlays, or even maybe an adverse effect on the hot stamps.
Im not trying to be snarky (I'm not a morning person and been cleaning my office for 4 hours), but why would you soak instead of just cleaning them with a scrubber? Just testing for funsy's sake? A magic eraser and dawn can have a chip clean in 15 seconds...
And if it's for funsy's sake, rock on. I got tagged in here so I haven't kept up with the reasoning... Lol.
OP
OP
How do you clean chips now? I’m quite interested!
Also, thanks again for the peroxide tip! I tested the typical 3% solution on some chips (hot stamps and inlays), and it worked great for lightening/removing stains. Given the relatively high surface tension of the peroxide, I would expect the risk of inlay seepage to be extremely low. In the case of the five inlaid chips I tested (TRK textured inlay, Paulson smooth inlay, Paulson textured round x2, and Paulson textured shaped), none experience even a hint of inlay seepage.
QUESTION: Have you ever tried the 12% peroxide solution that you can get at Home Depot in the gallon jug, or at Amazon (more expensive)?
https://a.co/d/079EWaI7
Agreed.
• Burt/ASM/CPC - Forget inlay seepage… I won’t even clean them. I haven’t found a cleaning agent (not even a weak Dawn solution) that doesn’t DISSOLVE these chips. I WILL oil them with J&J GEL, which doesn’t seem to hurt them at all, and helps prevent them from getting dirty.
QUESTION: Have you found something that can safely clean these chips???
• Shaped inlays - Larger perimeter (relative to round) = more linear inlay edge exposed to the liquid. That said, if you’re using a liquid with high surface tension and/or high viscosity, the risk is going to be relatively low for both round and shaped. And with the opposite (specifically, mineral oil), the risk is going to be high even with round inlays (as I discovered with a boatload of Paulson Nationals $5 chips many years ago).
• Older/used chips - At least in theory, wear around the edges of inlays would make them a bit more vulnerable.
OP
OP
Don’t worry; I don’t think you’re being snarky.
I’m testing this for two reasons:
- I prefer as little manual effort and individual handling of chips as possible, but only if it doesn’t damage the chips, of course. As an aside, I like using Magic Erasers on chip edges that have stubborn dirt, but not on chip faces, as I find they don’t get the recesses on the chip faces clean, and I don’t want to wear/abrade cross hatching and hot stamps. Plus, frankly, I’m lazy… I don’t want to spend even 15 seconds/chip (a bit under 1/2 hour/rack) if I can avoid it.
- I’m looking for a pre-soak that, when used before ultrasonic cleaning in a new solution I’ve been trying, results in something close to 100% clean chips. You may not have seen the photos of the Paulson Cherry chips with Peach and Metallic Gold spots that I posted, but manually cleaning them with the new cleaning agent I’m trying had beautiful results - the chips looked amazing (“hydrated” is a word I used) just after cleaning. After a J&J gel treatment, they look stunning (super color saturated, but without the glossy appearance you usually have right after oiling). However, I spent over 2 HOURS/RACK doing that manual cleaning, and that’s not counting the J&J gel treatment. So, I’m looking for a lazy way to get the same results.
Magic eraser or Sonic Scrubber, Dawn or Oxy, hydrogen soaks for staining. That's really all ya need in my mind.
Manually I can do a rack in 20-30 depending on the grime.
OP
OP
Gotcha. Thanks! Yeah, I’m clearly more lazy!
Side note - Many years ago, I tried Oxi Clean, but I found it slower than real TSP and Lundmark, and found that by the time the chips were clean, I had noticeably more color fading than with TSP or Lundmark. On the flip side, I haven’t noticed any color fading with Dawn. The Dawn dries out the chips like all the rest of them do, but it doesn’t seem to cause much actual fading.
I don't soak in Oxy. I use it as the solution in the magic eraser. Cuts grime better than Dawn on the stubborn shit but doesn't fade if it's not coated in it. Just a hint to help the eraser do it's job. My methods turned these..Gotcha. Thanks! Yeah, I’m clearly more lazy!
Side note - Many years ago, I tried Oxi Clean, but I found it slower than real TSP and Lundmark, and found that by the time the chips were clean, I had noticeably more color fading than with TSP or Lundmark. On the flip side, I haven’t noticed any color fading with Dawn. The Dawn dries out the chips like all the rest of them do, but it doesn’t seem to cause much actual fading.
Into these.
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