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We need orders! (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter David Spragg
- Start date
This x 1000%.
CPC has a fantastic selection of molds as it is. I'd much rather see some new spot patterns and a wider range of colour options (God knows we're all dying for a proper yellow).
Venturalvn
Full House
Blue doesn't need a re-up as much as Yellow does
Maybe a turquoise….
maxim_666666
Flush
Why did you decide it couldn't cost $75,000? As a former engineer, I can easily imagine this. It's not even about modern equipment, but about the number of cups. They are clearly each made separately. And here 50 of them are required for each form. If each one costs $1000 (I'm pretty sure it does). And this is already $50,000 (cups only). You can't make the entire mold... It's too complex a part... This is not the case when you run an automatic line, get the right part and harden it... In the end it will turn out crooked. This is a feature of hardening materials. Part of the metal changes the structure so much that the entire workpiece can bend so much that in the end the chips will become crooked (of course not like bananas), but this can be noticeable...
MichaelBubly
Flush
I'd love to see a more vibrant yellow and purple option. The current selection is very strong mixed and works well together, but all the yellows are missing vibrance and saturation compared to the other dayglo options.
Statesvegas
Flush
I have placed a couple of orders to supplement some of my existing sets in an effort to support the cause. I'm sure every order helps. I am a little tempted to order a set of the Chesterfields....
OP
OP
That's a pretty much spot on answer.
Add the cost of the upper and lower cavity (with it's complex channels for steam and water) again in hardened steel, the plates, pipe connections and temperature controls for another $10-$12k. Then you have to engrave and harden a master die, make maybe 4 hob (negatives) from it and if lucky you'll get 15 cups out of each before they show wear. So figure another $10k for that.
Anything crooked (just as would happen if you used a non hardened material under normal press conditions) means you can't get the vacuum under the inlays (that's what holds them in place - not adhesive), so rather that having crooked chips you wouldn't be able to have them at all!
Someone contrasted the process with Paulson earlier in the thread. For the last 20 years Paulson have used a lot of softer plastic composite in their chips. (average 50%). That means they can press chips at around 95 degrees and 30 tonnes PSI vs our 200 degrees plus and 200 tonnes. So they can use cheaper materials (which possibly are CNC cut) for their cups. Their small presses (256 of them I think) hold just the one pair of cups each.
They have the advantage that their owner was willing to put up $20m to build a factory in Mexico (which he got back in spades through the stock market flotation) and then employed hundreds of Mexicans to man those presses 24 hours a day at 5 peanuts an hour pay.
Just a little extra info on where he got the $20m and a whole lot more..... Shortly before B&G bought Paulson, the euro currency was introduced. Hundreds of casinos in Europe had to 're-rack' at a time when jetons and plaques formed the majority of their racks. B&G were at that time the only jeton and plaque producer. The European salesman (a friend of mine who is now a director at Abbiati) earned over $1m a year just in commission over the 3 year period the new racks were made. I did see some financials over that period and I think I recall they (owners back then were just husband and wife) made around $57m over the 3 years. With the market cornered they were charging 10-50 euros per plaque!
GreekRedEye
Flush
Thank you for the peek behind the curtain and for a clearer understanding of why CPCs feel different (better in my opinion) than Paulsons.
I hope you find time this weekend to respond to questions about maybe finding commercial (casino) clients to provide cashflow and whether new colors/patterns might be possible at a premium to boost retail sales.
Thanks for all you do!
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Venturalvn
Full House
Out of curiosity, other than dead stock, what would stop CPC from moving to a softer composite like Paulson does?
Obviously we're talking about decades and decades of usage and dwindling molds, but what happens when the last mold stops being usable? CPC just closes up shop? It seems like the move to a different composite has to be the only play? And with it would come cheaper molding and different color options.
Obviously we're talking about decades and decades of usage and dwindling molds, but what happens when the last mold stops being usable? CPC just closes up shop? It seems like the move to a different composite has to be the only play? And with it would come cheaper molding and different color options.
louBdub
4 of a Kind
I did not decide anything, I used a question mark. The 75K figure came from David.
I have a curiosity in the entire thing, it’s pretty interesting as a chipper. So questions were asked.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Coffee or bourbon. Any time. You bring the stories, I'll just listen.
I'll sponsor the coffee!
I thought I was going to be placing a large order this year, but I can't get my damn house to sell!!!
AlbinoDragon
Flush
@David Spragg, from the scattering of messages here on PCF (and even going back with the information Jim Blanchard was willing to release back on CT), this is a very nice and surprisingly detailed summary of the manufacturing processes at CPC (clearly, within what you are able and willing to share) but the differences between what you do and those at Paulson.
For this alone, thanks for sharing this information!! It's a brilliant insight into the magic happens there in Maine that many of us would love to see, but some of us realize we probaby shouldn't, much like the Magician's Code. (That, or how sausage is made??
)I suspected most of what you said here was the case, but scattered all over the forum here in bits and pieces, it's been tough to point to a post (or posts) whenever this subject comes up. I've bookmarked this very post so I have it handy whenever this question comes up in the future (as it inevitably will).
Maybe this part (and maybe future additions???) could be added to a sticky (and locked to comment?) thread where you are able to post the parts of the process you are willing to disclose, so future questions could be directed to. @Tommy ?? I know I have pictures of the making of some of my chips during the ASM Vegas era that were sent to me that I have never shared outside the one interested person in my home-game group that folks here might appreciate. An approved thread might be nice, not only to consoidate the infomation you are willing and able to share but also whatever random scattering of images that exist.
At this point, all we really have to show for "how the magic is made" is the post here:
http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/mfgchip.htm
An offically approved by you post (sitckied at the top of the CPC vendor thread) might be nice to have, mostly for the benefit of the new and future chippers.
Again, thanks for the insight. It's always fascinating learning new tidbits. My group (particularly newbies) ask about my chips and I try to share as much as I know.
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I’d pay good money for a factory tour.
It would be amazing to finish the tour with a “make your own chip activity”….my goal would be L30 or higher.
*I’d also sign any CDA that was put in front of me…
It would be amazing to finish the tour with a “make your own chip activity”….my goal would be L30 or higher.
*I’d also sign any CDA that was put in front of me…
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WedgeRock
Royal Flush
OP
OP
A softer composite could not be mixed in the same way the clay is rolled now. Nor can it be heated, cooled or ground in the same manner.
So you have to replace a rolling mill, boiler, chiller, laminater (because ours is steam and cold water controlled), 7 presses, grinder, spot press and punches.
Might be able to do that for $1m if lucky. Add another $100k for the install. 3 months factory down time for another $120k. Just not feasible. Most molds are 40-60 years old and have minimal wear. The Hmold, DSQ and Crowns are in their 'later life' but bear in mind they are closer to 80 years old and had way more usage in the first 50 years than they have now (probably as much as 10x).
OP
OP
Crown molds - for those that asked - cut-off not envisaged before end of Jan.
OP
OP
Most questions in this thread related to colors and spot patterns. They have all been answered elsewhere in the past as we already ploughed a ton of my own money into abortive attempts to introduce more of both.
Introducing a new color is extremely complex. Yes we have some new colors since 2013 but most were fortuitous or were resurrected from the past.
For example Dayglo Peacock (basically DG Blue) was a color made by the Burt Co. for Huxley customers 50 years ago so we had a formula. Same for Canary and Maroon. There is only one source for Dayglo dyes - Dayglo Corporation. For the product we need, we utilise every color they make. The only color they introduced in recent years was Blaze Orange, and that's how Dayglo Tiger came about. When you add additional dye or brightener to the formula, in most cases it does not blend, so the current colors are effectively at saturation point. The Orange die is very poor to mix, it's used to it's limit in DG Orange, which explains why it is duller than the other DG's.
DG yellow is somewhat the same. Add more and it starts to take on a slight greenish hue, which is how DG Saturn came about, by accident rather than design.
Suitable dyes from other manufacturers are similarly limited and some will not even supply samples (even for $$), they will only supply by the 50LB bag which can cost up to $2,000.
In the earlier years we undertook countless experiments with samples, and with mixing of multiple existing dyes, variations in other ingredients etc. We tried to make about 10 new colors including a number from the TR King pallet like Beige, Light & Dark Turquoise, Gold. I don't see it does any harm here to give a little more insight into the rolling of clay, as without the ingredients (some which Joe Public can't buy), recipes and machinery the info isn't much use to anyone.
First some basic facts (can you show me where it hurts
1. Clay changes color slightly from heat during the pressing processes (mainly due to the removal of moisture present in some ingredients which is not transparent).
2. It is almost impossible to make clay from raw materials alone, it does not blend properly and has nothing to adhere to at the rolling mill.
3. Similarly it is almost impossible to re-roll solid clay made previously on it's own.
4. The clay makes it's way to the press for blanks (slugs) to be made as the first part of the manufacturing process. It's in sheet form, heated and then cut into strips to lay across the cups in the mold. In very simplistic terms you are pressing out a bunch of discs from strips. That leaves you with a bunch of 'edgings' - all the unused thin pieces.
5. A new batch of clay is mixed and rolled by combining an equal weight of edgings and raw materials as they blend perfectly. The resultant color clay, once pressed again, maintains an almost exact color to previous batches of chips. Don't ask why it works as it does, it's various chemical reactions just as in baking. Someone figured it out almost 100 years ago and we stick with it. Now, not relevant to the questions I'm answering, but very occasionally the content of a raw material changes because someone somewhere decided an ingredient wasn't safe to eat or whatever, and even after tinkering with the mix a faint change of color occurs. Now bear in mind that over time your chips are very slightly changing color anyway due to heat, light, being damp, too dry etc. etc. so a re-order is always going to look different but will quickly blend in.
6. Given all the factors above, plus the fact some ingredients are in such small measures (a few grams out of 25LB of mix) it is impossible to mix small quantities. And also given those factors, for a new color you have to break the rules by starting with raw ingredients only, putting them through the press, taking all the pieces back to the rolling mill and adding equal weight or raw materials about 3 times round to get a stable mix with no streaks which will not change color in the future. (Some may remember we had a short lived Mint Green some years ago - when the next batch was made it changed color so we had to abandon it).
7. Figure by this point you have had to make 200LB of clay to get a new stable color (if you even get one). You've used $1600 of other materials, almost certainly had to buy the $2000 bag of dye as the sample was nowhere near enough (unless they tell you it was discontinued while you were testing - yes, that's happened also) and have used some 70 man hours of factory time at $40/hour. You are in for over $6,000 and may not even have a usable color. Half the stuff you made will be scrap because you haven't used it within the shelf life, and you prevented other colors being made*** and disrupted the entire production process for whatever other orders should have been pressed at that time.
8. *** Rolling a batch of clay start to finish is over half a day. Then you have to clean the mill thoroughly unless you just happen to be lucky and need light green and dark green at the same time and you can continue to use the mill. Even on the rare occurrences something like that happens, it's a max of two colors that can be produced on one day. Aside from the tremendous extra outlay (we probably have $75k sunk into raw material/parts inventory at any time), there are two other limiting factors factors on how much you can produce at a time. 1. Shelf Life. 2. The fact you need the edgings in equal quantity per 5. above. Clay has to be rolled on most days as it is. Adding more colors would slow down production considerably and end up costing us money.
I'll answer about the spot patterns in another post.
Introducing a new color is extremely complex. Yes we have some new colors since 2013 but most were fortuitous or were resurrected from the past.
For example Dayglo Peacock (basically DG Blue) was a color made by the Burt Co. for Huxley customers 50 years ago so we had a formula. Same for Canary and Maroon. There is only one source for Dayglo dyes - Dayglo Corporation. For the product we need, we utilise every color they make. The only color they introduced in recent years was Blaze Orange, and that's how Dayglo Tiger came about. When you add additional dye or brightener to the formula, in most cases it does not blend, so the current colors are effectively at saturation point. The Orange die is very poor to mix, it's used to it's limit in DG Orange, which explains why it is duller than the other DG's.
DG yellow is somewhat the same. Add more and it starts to take on a slight greenish hue, which is how DG Saturn came about, by accident rather than design.
Suitable dyes from other manufacturers are similarly limited and some will not even supply samples (even for $$), they will only supply by the 50LB bag which can cost up to $2,000.
In the earlier years we undertook countless experiments with samples, and with mixing of multiple existing dyes, variations in other ingredients etc. We tried to make about 10 new colors including a number from the TR King pallet like Beige, Light & Dark Turquoise, Gold. I don't see it does any harm here to give a little more insight into the rolling of clay, as without the ingredients (some which Joe Public can't buy), recipes and machinery the info isn't much use to anyone.
First some basic facts (can you show me where it hurts
1. Clay changes color slightly from heat during the pressing processes (mainly due to the removal of moisture present in some ingredients which is not transparent).
2. It is almost impossible to make clay from raw materials alone, it does not blend properly and has nothing to adhere to at the rolling mill.
3. Similarly it is almost impossible to re-roll solid clay made previously on it's own.
4. The clay makes it's way to the press for blanks (slugs) to be made as the first part of the manufacturing process. It's in sheet form, heated and then cut into strips to lay across the cups in the mold. In very simplistic terms you are pressing out a bunch of discs from strips. That leaves you with a bunch of 'edgings' - all the unused thin pieces.
5. A new batch of clay is mixed and rolled by combining an equal weight of edgings and raw materials as they blend perfectly. The resultant color clay, once pressed again, maintains an almost exact color to previous batches of chips. Don't ask why it works as it does, it's various chemical reactions just as in baking. Someone figured it out almost 100 years ago and we stick with it. Now, not relevant to the questions I'm answering, but very occasionally the content of a raw material changes because someone somewhere decided an ingredient wasn't safe to eat or whatever, and even after tinkering with the mix a faint change of color occurs. Now bear in mind that over time your chips are very slightly changing color anyway due to heat, light, being damp, too dry etc. etc. so a re-order is always going to look different but will quickly blend in.
6. Given all the factors above, plus the fact some ingredients are in such small measures (a few grams out of 25LB of mix) it is impossible to mix small quantities. And also given those factors, for a new color you have to break the rules by starting with raw ingredients only, putting them through the press, taking all the pieces back to the rolling mill and adding equal weight or raw materials about 3 times round to get a stable mix with no streaks which will not change color in the future. (Some may remember we had a short lived Mint Green some years ago - when the next batch was made it changed color so we had to abandon it).
7. Figure by this point you have had to make 200LB of clay to get a new stable color (if you even get one). You've used $1600 of other materials, almost certainly had to buy the $2000 bag of dye as the sample was nowhere near enough (unless they tell you it was discontinued while you were testing - yes, that's happened also) and have used some 70 man hours of factory time at $40/hour. You are in for over $6,000 and may not even have a usable color. Half the stuff you made will be scrap because you haven't used it within the shelf life, and you prevented other colors being made*** and disrupted the entire production process for whatever other orders should have been pressed at that time.
8. *** Rolling a batch of clay start to finish is over half a day. Then you have to clean the mill thoroughly unless you just happen to be lucky and need light green and dark green at the same time and you can continue to use the mill. Even on the rare occurrences something like that happens, it's a max of two colors that can be produced on one day. Aside from the tremendous extra outlay (we probably have $75k sunk into raw material/parts inventory at any time), there are two other limiting factors factors on how much you can produce at a time. 1. Shelf Life. 2. The fact you need the edgings in equal quantity per 5. above. Clay has to be rolled on most days as it is. Adding more colors would slow down production considerably and end up costing us money.
I'll answer about the spot patterns in another post.
improviseallday
Flush
What an involved process, thanks for sharing.
FWIW, at a few thousand dollars per attempt, I think it's very possible that the degen chippers here would be interested in funding a few attempts at a new yellow, Kickstarter-style.
FWIW, at a few thousand dollars per attempt, I think it's very possible that the degen chippers here would be interested in funding a few attempts at a new yellow, Kickstarter-style.
Don't worry David. In 6 months someone will start a thread "Hey, let's get a new die and new clay for CPC" and you can type all of this out again......
Lolz.
OP
OP
Edge spots
A clay blank has to be warmed to the exact right temperature before it can be punched. It is very slightly soft and this varies from color to color.
Bear in mind this warming may cause a slight distortion in flatness, even if it is only a few thou. Consequently, the 'prongs' of the punch will not strike the surface at exactly the same time. Now even though it's only clay, when it's struck with something with 200psi behind it something will give.
There used to be a 418 punch years ago, expensive construction of hardened steel with tungsten carbide tips. The clay won that war! To make a 418 now we have to punch twice with a 218 punch. Two small prongs is fine, the clay will shift that few thou so both prongs hit at the same time and won't ever break or bend the prongs. Same for 318. Look at it this way - if you have a 3 legged bar stool it will never wobble even if the legs are slightly different lengths. Not so for a 4 legged stool.
The DS18 punches are made in such a way that only the tips are 1/8 wide. They are strong enough to do the job but hard and slow to use (all these things translate to different spot level prices by the way). Anything bigger than 1/8 is strong enough to easily win against the clay.
When we acquired the TR King molds and I developed the Tri-Moon punches, I also had others designed to make V spots and shallower TR King type spots.
The shallower punches simply didn't work as they just shredded the edge of the chip as there was insufficient surface contact.
There were 5 reasons the V's would not work.
1. Many of the spots would not punch out cleanly.
2. The points of the V's wore extremely quickly (one of them only lasted for about 20 chips!!)
3. In the mold, the clay of the body simply squeezed out most of the V (which is actually a super exaggerated version of what happens with split spots).
4. Drop the finished chip on the floor and the V's fall out. Just the wrong shape and lack of contact area to hold.
5. They have to be hand assembled at the press. Ok, the tri-moons are done the same way, but the pieces are that much bigger to handle and put into place when you are running against time while the press is on the heating up cycle.
So we've already invested a lot of time and money to find out we can't do these things.
As for an 818, you'd have to punch then with a 218 four times. You can't do that in one pass because the chip has cooled from it's correct warmth in a couple of seconds, so then you would risk breaking the punch. Trying to punch something 4 times with no guides will simply distort the chip (warming it up again will start to close the holes you already punched), so you'd never get them evenly spaced, the holes would be too tight to insert the spots, and a large proportion would break at some point during the punching.
For contrast, Paulson softer sticker mix and much less heat and pressure, combined by the fact they have punching machines that follow through and insert the spot, means they are able to do it. Even then if you have enough Paulson V spot chips you'll know there are massive inconsistencies.
A clay blank has to be warmed to the exact right temperature before it can be punched. It is very slightly soft and this varies from color to color.
Bear in mind this warming may cause a slight distortion in flatness, even if it is only a few thou. Consequently, the 'prongs' of the punch will not strike the surface at exactly the same time. Now even though it's only clay, when it's struck with something with 200psi behind it something will give.
There used to be a 418 punch years ago, expensive construction of hardened steel with tungsten carbide tips. The clay won that war! To make a 418 now we have to punch twice with a 218 punch. Two small prongs is fine, the clay will shift that few thou so both prongs hit at the same time and won't ever break or bend the prongs. Same for 318. Look at it this way - if you have a 3 legged bar stool it will never wobble even if the legs are slightly different lengths. Not so for a 4 legged stool.
The DS18 punches are made in such a way that only the tips are 1/8 wide. They are strong enough to do the job but hard and slow to use (all these things translate to different spot level prices by the way). Anything bigger than 1/8 is strong enough to easily win against the clay.
When we acquired the TR King molds and I developed the Tri-Moon punches, I also had others designed to make V spots and shallower TR King type spots.
The shallower punches simply didn't work as they just shredded the edge of the chip as there was insufficient surface contact.
There were 5 reasons the V's would not work.
1. Many of the spots would not punch out cleanly.
2. The points of the V's wore extremely quickly (one of them only lasted for about 20 chips!!)
3. In the mold, the clay of the body simply squeezed out most of the V (which is actually a super exaggerated version of what happens with split spots).
4. Drop the finished chip on the floor and the V's fall out. Just the wrong shape and lack of contact area to hold.
5. They have to be hand assembled at the press. Ok, the tri-moons are done the same way, but the pieces are that much bigger to handle and put into place when you are running against time while the press is on the heating up cycle.
So we've already invested a lot of time and money to find out we can't do these things.
As for an 818, you'd have to punch then with a 218 four times. You can't do that in one pass because the chip has cooled from it's correct warmth in a couple of seconds, so then you would risk breaking the punch. Trying to punch something 4 times with no guides will simply distort the chip (warming it up again will start to close the holes you already punched), so you'd never get them evenly spaced, the holes would be too tight to insert the spots, and a large proportion would break at some point during the punching.
For contrast, Paulson softer sticker mix and much less heat and pressure, combined by the fact they have punching machines that follow through and insert the spot, means they are able to do it. Even then if you have enough Paulson V spot chips you'll know there are massive inconsistencies.
OP
OP
As I explained, it's not just the funding of the process, it's the fact you could lose days and days of production while doing it. Delays every single order we have and then adds another $2000 loss of revenue a day. How many is a 'few'. Let's say it's three. Before you know it that is $30,000 wasted, not a few thousand. Plus the fact there is no other suitable yellow die in existence anyway. It's incredibly bright, just gets dulled down by other ingredients, and as I said changes color as you add more (or just doesn't mix and leaves streaks) due to whatever unknown chemical processes are going on.
OP
OP
I'm going to say that with your background you'd have been able to make a pretty good stab at giving the same answers I did
ekricket
Royal Flush
Tiger Stripes! Or camo in the green realm
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