What do you do when you’re ridiculously stuck in a session? (7 Viewers)

[gopherblue]

I prefer the Occam's Razor approach to all this.

 

[TheDuke]

I'm pretty sure all casino shufflers read the cards by design. That's how they shuffle and randomize the deck by knowing what the cards are and resorting in a random pattern. They don't mimic riffles, cuts, etc. like the Shuffletech.

Part of the reason to read the cards is for the integrity of the game: to identify if a card is missing or if there's too many (duplicates).

I thought I read this somewhere before (on this forum?) , but can't find it.

 

[The_dude]

As far as I can tell the casino grade shuffle machines don’t actually “shuffle” the cards, they determine card order using an RNG (random number generator) and then sort the deck into that order, similar to how online poker software works. It could cost less than a night of winnings from a rigged game to pay a developer to reverse engineer the onboard software and/or write custom software for it. If the ROM is flashable (likely) you wouldn’t even need to touch the hardware. A little more $/effort would be needed to add remote functionality.

Very interesting thread @Windwalker. With the right ending and a screenwriter you’ve got a movie

 

[casinochipper22]

I played today at a shuffle tech table. It identified a boxed card and the dealer mentioned it could identify a particular missing card too

Well. That kind of makes sense i guess. If the machine can count the cards. Identify if any one is missing or boxed. But what i can't imagine (for a regulated, NGC approved machine) is the ability to track/identify during or before a shuffle. But what the hell do i know. Lol. Just my guess. I'm no expert here.

 

[The_dude]

Well. That kind of makes sense i guess. If the machine can count the cards. Identify if any one is missing or boxed. But what i can't imagine (for a regulated, NGC approved machine) is the ability to track/identify during or before a shuffle. But what the hell do i know. Lol. Just my guess. I'm no expert here.

Shuffle king boasts “The shuffle is governed by a GLI approved random number generator” (http://shuffleking2.casinoshuffler.com/)

The shuffle master doesn’t mention a RNG but it can sort cards back to a suited deck. If it can do that it can put them in any order.
It also features a remote touchscreen display
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuf...ilities/Single-Deck-Shufflers/DeckMate-2-7816

 

[casinochipper22]

As far as I can tell the casino grade shuffle machines don’t actually “shuffle” the cards, they determine card order using an RNG (random number generator) and then sort the deck into that order, similar to how online poker software works. It could cost less than a night of winnings from a rigged game to pay a developer to reverse engineer the onboard software and/or write custom software for it. If the ROM is flashable (likely) you wouldn’t even need to touch the hardware. A little more $/effort would be needed to add remote functionality.

Very interesting thread @Windwalker. With the right ending and a screenwriter you’ve got a movie

Shuffle king boasts “The shuffle is governed by a GLI approved random number generator” (http://shuffleking2.casinoshuffler.com/)

The shuffle master doesn’t mention a RNG but it can sort cards back to a suited deck. If it can do that it can put them in any order.
It also features a remote touchscreen display
https://www.sggaming.com/Games/Shuf...ilities/Single-Deck-Shufflers/DeckMate-2-7816

Thanks for the info. That is both pretty cool. And pretty scarey at the same time.

 

[DeeVee8]

 

[khp]

Quick question - for all this shuffle machine chicanery to work, the cards must be RFID cards?

If so, seems like an easy fix would just be to use non RFID cards? I mean, most people probably don’t want to be on a stream anyway?

 

[ChipFinderSK]

I actually wouldn’t have even considered it, by the way, weren’t it for someone on this thread making me think about it again.

Curious what the post was that made you consider you were cheated?

 

[TheDuke]

No, just regular decks. These machines can read the faces of the cards.

 

[Windwalker]

Curious what the post was that made you consider you were cheated?

It was originally a PM from @Pinkdan and then a thoughtful post from @DrStrange .

 

[Windwalker]

Update for those who are interested: the wire returning my $40k buy-in hit my account today.

Now the fun begins.

 

[Pinkdan]

Update for those who are interested: the wire returning my $40k buy-in hit my account today.

Now the fun begins.

 

[Perthmike]

There was a scene in the gentlemen, involving a pig and a video recording that might be a reasonable level of payback

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Update for those who are interested: the wire returning my $40k buy-in hit my account today.

Now the fun begins.

 

[Windwalker]

Another update, with more info from the investigator: -- the tech was inspired by a YouTube Video from last year, and built by a savvy game operator who had downtime during covid to use as an alternative to a card mechanic, who were getting harder to pin down and keep control of. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to get a game going as quickly as he wanted because of LA Covid regulations, and he sold the tech to the guys that hosted the game I went to. This is the YouTube video that inspired the tech:

 

[Organista1]

That’s crazy Krish but I guess it makes sense that people need to develop a way to scam people due to the stakes that are involved. And it’s super suspect that they would easily return your money.. who does that!!!? Well glad you got your money back guess they realized you weren’t someone to just send away and ignore.

during pandemic I was quarantined and managed to see Sneaky Pete in which they had a high stakes rigged game episode or two which was interesting. I don’t recall if it was worthy of seeing but thought I’d mention, don’t judge I was medicated.

nice read here. Thanks

 

[Thisfiendis138]

The Wrath of...

Krish

 

[jr8719]

Update for those who are interested: the wire returning my $40k buy-in hit my account today.

Now the fun begins.

So they only refunded half of the $80k you were down?

 

[Windwalker]

So they only refunded half of the $80k you were down?

I owed $41k, hadn’t settled up yet.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Interesting read Krish. I’ve been saying for awhile now that the “DeckMate2” shuffle machines they use in many card rooms can manipulate a deck.
My personal opinion on it in lower stakes 1/2 or 1/3 games is to create maximum rake per hand.

The “DeckMate2” can also put a completely mixed deck back in order using what I believe is a “sort mode” function. My question has always been, with that kind of technology in a card shuffling machine, who’s to say it can’t set a deck to favor a certain seat?

 

[Irish]

I played today at a shuffle tech table. It identified a boxed card and the dealer mentioned it could identify a particular missing card too.

Shuffle Tech or Shuffle Mate? (Assuming the latter)

 

[JWC]

Well. That kind of makes sense i guess. If the machine can count the cards. Identify if any one is missing or boxed. But what i can't imagine (for a regulated, NGC approved machine) is the ability to track/identify during or before a shuffle. But what the hell do i know. Lol. Just my guess. I'm no expert here.

Correct, there are lots of rules around shufflers, which would pertain to randomness, predictability, etc. Further, the software would need to be approved, with a SHA-1/MD5, etc. signature on file that the NGCB could verify the software with.

The simplest solution to the gaff is to obtain the mechanical portion, and build the electronics and software portion. This way you could ensure that the mechanics were solid. Since it’s a private game, there is no chance of inspection.

 

[JWC]

In other words, they can manufacture the machine with these capabilities without necessarily resorting to others rigging it? Can come this way out of the box?

Yes, someone can manufacture that type of unit where it runs through the deck to verify that all cards/decks are present. However, you can’t keep track where each card is.

 

[JWC]

Interesting read Krish. I’ve been saying for awhile now that the “DeckMate2” shuffle machines they use in many card rooms can manipulate a deck.
My personal opinion on it in lower stakes 1/2 or 1/3 games is to create maximum rake per hand.

The “DeckMate2” can also put a completely mixed deck back in order using what I believe is a “sort mode” function. My question has always been, with that kind of technology in a card shuffling machine, who’s to say it can’t set a deck to favor a certain seat?

You have a third party test and verify the software, then record the signatures of the known good software. The known good signatures can be used to verify the software loaded is valid. Same with slot machines.

 

[Kain8]

Interesting read Krish. I’ve been saying for awhile now that the “DeckMate2” shuffle machines they use in many card rooms can manipulate a deck.
My personal opinion on it in lower stakes 1/2 or 1/3 games is to create maximum rake per hand.

The “DeckMate2” can also put a completely mixed deck back in order using what I believe is a “sort mode” function. My question has always been, with that kind of technology in a card shuffling machine, who’s to say it can’t set a deck to favor a certain seat?

With all due respect, you do realize that any sort function (even if it were possible) would be negated by simply cutting the deck after it comes out of the shuffler?

 

[TheDuke]

Interesting read Krish. I’ve been saying for awhile now that the “DeckMate2” shuffle machines they use in many card rooms can manipulate a deck.
My personal opinion on it in lower stakes 1/2 or 1/3 games is to create maximum rake per hand.

The “DeckMate2” can also put a completely mixed deck back in order using what I believe is a “sort mode” function. My question has always been, with that kind of technology in a card shuffling machine, who’s to say it can’t set a deck to favor a certain seat?

I think casinos using shufflers to stack the deck to create big hand vs big hand is pretty far fetched.

Think about it. The number of seats at a table is always fluid. Seats opening up as players bust out, go for a walk/smoke, go for a dinner break, etc. How is the software able to detect how many players each deck is going to be dealt out to? It would require constant user input to adjust.

The nature of the amount of rake depends on the amount in the pot. Given how terrible players usually are in a casino setting, most hands will see betting/calling on multiple streets. Thereby crossing max rake threshold by way of player conduct. No need to create coolers. Shitty players cool themselves with their terrible play. No need for outside intervention.

The nature of a shuffle machine increasing rate of play (more hands per hour equals more rake) is reason enough for casinos to implement shufflers vs dealers hand shuffling decks.

I would highly doubt a casino operator is going to risk their gaming license to potentially increase rake by a few basis points.

 

[JWC]

@TheDuke - I think casinos using shufflers to stack the deck to create big hand vs big hand is pretty far fetched.

I fully agree with you, as there is no benefit for the casino to cheat at poker. Too much risk, too little reward.

However, I can see why a group would cheat at a private poker game.

 

[monkeydog]

I think casinos using shufflers to stack the deck to create big hand vs big hand is pretty far fetched.

Think about it. The number of seats at a table is always fluid. Seats opening up as players bust out, go for a walk/smoke, go for a dinner break, etc. How is the software able to detect how many players each deck is going to be dealt out to? It would require constant user input to adjust.

The nature of the amount of rake depends on the amount in the pot. Given how terrible players usually are in a casino setting, most hands will see betting/calling on multiple streets. Thereby crossing max rake threshold by way of player conduct. No need to create coolers. Shitty players cool themselves with their terrible play. No need for outside intervention.

The nature of a shuffle machine increasing rate of play (more hands per hour equals more rake) is reason enough for casinos to implement shufflers vs dealers hand shuffling decks.

I would highly doubt a casino operator is going to risk their gaming license to potentially increase rake by a few basis points.

I 100% agree that there is likely no chance that casinos would risk it, but this was the exact same thought/opinion re: poker sites until the super user scandal broke at Absolute Poker.

Never underestimate the poor decision making that greed can bring out in people. The success of using a tactic and getting away with it brings the temptation of using the tactic more frequently and in suboptimal cases - “it worked for one pot in 20, so why not one pot in 15, then 10, then 5, etc.”

Also need to keep in mind that we only ever hear about the scams that get busted. The ones run by smart and disciplined scammers just run on and on...

 

[Lil Tuna]

With all due respect, you do realize that any sort function (even if it were possible) would be negated by simply cutting the deck after it comes out of the shuffler?

I don’t know. Could a shuffle machine be programmed to set a deck pre cut to be dealt in a certain order after a cut?
Not trying to create an argument, just thinking of what may or may not be possible. I know my thought on this will always seem far fetched or crazy to most.