When do you fold KK preflop? (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

I know I have a lot to learn, so help me out.
1/2 NLHE in casino - my first hand, with a $160 buyin, so I know nothing about my opponents - full table - except their stacks.
I'm bb and I get KK
Utg folds, utg1, who has $600ish limps. Somebody in the middle raised to $12, he gets 1 caller, I raise it to $27.
Utg1 raise to $100, everybody else folds, so what should I do? He's obviously representing AA, but all I know about him is he's got a big stack. And I have KK. So I called.
Rainbow crap flop, I shove my last $60, he calls, and shows his aces.
I feel like I didn't have much of a choice.
Do people fold to that $100?

 

[ChipEnvy]

Never ever ever.

 

[GoStumpy]

Nope.

Your 3 bet is a bit small but you're being results oriented. This same thing could happen when he shows up with KK, AK, QQ, and you win on average.


I folded KK preflop once against a good friend because he only 4bets wth aces and kings... turns out he had queens and I learned that he has QQ in his 4bet range

 

[acl1904]

Neva, eva, eva. Against aces you still have a 20% of winning.

 

[GoStumpy]

Neva, eva, eva. Against aces you still have a 20% of winning.

And the chance of being against Aces is never ever high enough to justify folding unless you have one hell of a good read on a nit or something.

Read less?

All in preflop every time. Don't stop raising

 

[Rhodeman77]

You are nowhere deep enough to even think about doing anything other than shoving the rest of your stack in.

To fold KK preflop has to be a very special situation. Mostly lots of hand history with a very nitty player that has already 4 bet in front of you and much deeper stacks than this. Hopefully if that has happened you haven't put much money in and can fold. But that is a very very very rare situation. Basically you should be happy to get it and if you lose rebuy.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

EVERY FRIGGIN TI.....Oh wait, KK? Never. I thought you said JJ

 

[upNdown]

Thanks guys. I figured this was just a shit happens situation, but I just wanted to double check.
And not like II should be taking poker lessons from movies, but I felt like that like from Rounders when he says sometimes it's about putting you opponent into a decision for his chips. In this situation, I thought I was given an easy decision.

 

[upNdown]

To fold KK preflop has to be a very special situation.

I sat across from a woman in a tournament for a couple of hours, one time, and she only played AA or KK. Seriously. And she actually got those hands 4-5 times.
I guess I would have folded to her. But that's the only such special situation I can recall.

 

[DrStrange]

Never folding with medium to short stacks. * see exception below

Rarely folding without a massive read. I do play with people that have a check/raise range of exactly AA {and maybe it would need to be black aces only}

* exception = multiway crazy action. example, I raise KK UTG and by the time it gets back to me I have been five bet by at least a couple of competent players playing deeper stacks. Someone has aces and Hero's kings can't have any more than 20% equity, likely a bit less.

 

[Jimulacrum]

* exception = multiway crazy action. example, I raise KK UTG and by the time it gets back to me I have been five bet by at least a couple of competent players playing deeper stacks. Someone has aces and Hero's kings can't have any more than 20% equity, likely a bit less.

This is usually the kind of thing that it takes to get me off kings preflop. Stacks must be at least somewhat deep, and the action needs to be such that I'm quite sure someone has aces.

In this spot, starting with 80 BB at a new table and against only one active Villain, there's no getting away from kings. Not even with the backraise. For significantly deeper stacks, it's a tougher decision, but not $160 with $27 already in.

P.S.—Make your 3-bet bigger next time.

 

[AWenger]

utg1, who has $600ish limps. Somebody in the middle raised to $12, he gets 1 caller, I raise it to $27.
Utg1 raise to $100,

Your starting stack of $160 is too short to fold in this spot. Now if you have $300 or $500 to start, may be different.

Let me ask this, did mp & other caller also have closer to $200 or $600? Did mp look like a nit or loose player? (I know it was 1st hand) If mp had closer to $600 (i.e. covers utg+1) and seemed nitty, it might have been possible to read that utg+1 was just not afraid to get his stack in versus either of you two, which might mean more likely its AA and less likely its QQ. But if mp had closer to $200, like you, I could see any random player limp 4-betting utg+1 w QQ or AK.

 

[upNdown]

That's a good question, and something I don't think I consciously considered. I'm not sure what the other two had, but I'm thinking that because I'm not sure, it was probably under 200 each.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Never!!! Even when you're behind you're not.

My buddy was in the WSOP Main Event. Woke up with AA. Got in against 1 player. Flops an A to hit a set. Other guy checks and my buddy puts in a continuation bet. Other guy calls. K on the turn. Other guy bets, my buddy moves all in. Dude calls. Pocket AA against pocket KK. Both have sets. K on the river. Moral of the story...even when you're .08% to win, you still play KK.

 

[Trihonda]

I've folded KK, and would have folded AA in the same situation...

In a $250 satty (top 30 people win an $1100 mspt main event seat. Very close to the bubble, I'm sitting on 10bb at a table with people with 200+bbs. At another table, there a couple ppl with close to 1-2 bbs. They were in continual jeopardy of busting. There's no reason to chip up, just survive! I folded KK in this spot. A guy with 8bbs shoves with aces, and got 6 callers. He busted out, and the guy with 1bb left (at the other table) wins a main event seat, lol

 

[upNdown]

Yup, tournament play is different. I remember folding Queens once in a tournament. After I put in a big raise preflop, another guy put in a big reraise and the next guy reraised him. I got the hell out. Turns out they were KK and AA, so I made the right move. But I was pretty bummed when the a Q came on the turn or the river.

 

[Trihonda]

Yup, tournament play is different. I remember folding Queens once in a tournament. After I put in a big raise preflop, another guy put in a big reraise and the next guy reraised him. I got the hell out. Turns out they were KK and AA, so I made the right move. But I was pretty bummed when the a Q came on the turn or the river.

Regardless of results, your read, and fold, were correct.

 

[mummel]

You made the right call. I would have done the same.

 

[keshaldra]

Live players are a funky bunch. There is a "not exactly small" group of players whose 3-bet range is limited to EXACTLY AA. If I identify such players (and at 1/2, they take up probably half the table), I fold to almost any 3-bet, and continue to do so until I see a reason not to (like seeing them 3-bet with something other than AA).

Tournaments are a different story. Maybe in a very rare bubble situation or a weird massive multiway as described above, that's about it.

 

[jbutler]

Your hand is an autoplay at these stakes and that depth. I've folded kings twice preflop ever. Right once, wrong once.

Multiple smarter poker players than me have observed that you could go through your entire poker career never folding kings preflop and at worst it would be a wash. My massive sample size of 2 demonstrates that nicely.

 

[cgraham86]

The real way to answer this question is to re-ask it in a different way:

"Given the opponent, stakes and relative stack sizes would you be willing to play for your whole stack with pocket kings?"

If the answer is "yes always", then you don't fold kings pre-flop.

 

[MoscowRadio]

I agree with what pretty much everyone has said.

-You can't, nor should you be folding KK with 80 BBs to a total stranger
-The 3-bet was too small
-The whole stack should've gone in preflop instead of leaving 30 BBs behind when the pot is 71BBs. Just shove pre-flop because you're gonna have to do it on basically every flop. You have no fold-equity and your opponent is getting around 2.4 to 1 on a call.

 

[Psypher1000]

The only thing I would add is if you're at the Rumble in the Rockies/Great Divide, KK is trouble. Of the five times I recall seeing it, they only help up once and left their holder either felted or severely crippled the other four times.

Everywhere else, rock'em.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I've folded KK, and would have folded AA in the same situation...

In a $250 satty (top 30 people win an $1100 mspt main event seat. Very close to the bubble, I'm sitting on 10bb at a table with people with 200+bbs. At another table, there a couple ppl with close to 1-2 bbs. They were in continual jeopardy of busting. There's no reason to chip up, just survive! I folded KK in this spot. A guy with 8bbs shoves with aces, and got 6 callers. He busted out, and the guy with 1bb left (at the other table) wins a main event seat, lol

???Why would you have folder AA in that position. You would have been 99.82% to win (I believe). You could only lose to runner runner KK???

 

[BGinGA]

Easy fold with AA under those conditions.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Easy fold with AA under those conditions.

WHAT??? AA Preflop. A on the flop. No straight and no flush possiblity. K comes on the turn and they both get all in. Why would you fold an AAA there?. You only need to fade 1 card (the K). The decision was on the turn not the river. Why in the world would you be afraid of a 1 outer???

 

[WillAndrew]

Trihonda (and BG) is referring to the situation described in Trihonda's follow-up paragraph in a bubble tourney spot, quoted in your post. Not the cash game OP. Maybe a colon would have made it clearer. They're right. You're right.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Trihonda (and BG) is referring to the situation described in Trihonda's follow-up paragraph in a bubble tourney spot, quoted in your post. Not the cash game OP. Maybe a colon would have made it clearer. They're right. You're right.

Okay. I thought that was on my reference. Sorry.

 

[WillAndrew]

Oh ha, no, yours is nuts. I hope I never see that, even if I'm on the Kings end. I would feel like I'd have to pay a little back to the guy

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Oh ha, no, yours is nuts. I hope I never see that, even if I'm on the Kings end. I would feel like I'd have to pay a little back to the guy

Yeah. It was awful. My buddy started with 140k. Gave away 90k on that hand. He was 99.92%ish to win and still lost. He rallied back to finish day 2 with 188k, but that really hurt.