Cash Game Wynn does away with straddles, adds BBA at 5-10 and 10-20 NLHE (2 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

Interesting interview with the Wynn Poker manager about the recent change to take straddles out of the higher NL games.

https://www.pokernews.com/news/2024...A63JjKLWY5bqBtXpUI_aem_OHUhb3YTABAIrTPTYr9Mww

This quote definitely reminds me of other opinions I have heard here.

Straddles have become a weapon for experienced players to drive up the stakes and force others to play out of their comfort zone. It simply puts too much strain on casual players or players trying to move up in stakes.

I typically allow one straddle UTG when I host, everything else is a dead raise. But I wouldn't say I am personally in love with the straddle.

What say you, PCF?

 

[MrCatPants]

No straddles.

 

[Legend5555]

It depends. At those stakes, it's a good move because it lets a lot more 2/5 players move up as the 5/10 game was almost always 5/10/20.

If I had to choose between ante and straddle, ante all the way.

 

[Mojo1312]

Here is my opinion without having read the article linked in the O.P.

Big blinds that are 2x the small blind in no-limit has zero impact on how the game plays. Seldom does anyone in the SB fold their hand in a limped pot, unless of course, they would rather continue to pay attention to whatever is on their cell phone. But I digress.

Players are not going to decide to call a raise OOP based off of the SB that they have in the pot. I am not surprised that BBA have become popular in high stake games.

When I hosted, the button had the option of straddling. If he passed, the straddle option would go to the player UTG. Limit one straddle per hand.

Unlimited straddles were allowed at the cash table during our bi-monthly MTT.

 

[Solid Snake]

I’m not a fan of the button straddle in the private games.

 

[Pippa]

No straddle

 

[JustinInMN]

It depends. At those stakes, it's a good move because it lets a lot more 2/5 players move up as the 5/10 game was almost always 5/10/20.

If I had to choose between ante and straddle, ante all the way.

I think this makes the most sense as to why.

They sensed little upward flow of the player pool from 2-5 and didn't want the 5-10 game to die out by making it a 5-10-20.

 

[LeLe]

I like the BBA format, which I been using whenever I hosting for years ago.

It very uncommon pre covid but I believe will become the norm in the future

As for straddle, I only allow the UTG straddle and no button straddle (which kill the game and action compared to a UTG straddle)

Double triple straddle is allow and welcome as well

 

[ChipFinderSK]

@Chippy McChiperson

 

[upNdown]

Yeah, I saw Allen Kessler post this on facebook a few days back; I wondered when it would get discussed here. I think the BBA thing is great; send it down to the lower stakes as well.
As far as straddles go - I'm fine with them at home games, as long as you know what you're getting into. I have unlimited straddles in my game and I don't think I've ever seen it go more that re-re-straddle (and that probably only happened once,) and the straddle itself happens less than once an orbit. That's just how my game plays. If it was getting out of control, I'd probably change the rules. Because sometimes straddles can effectively change the stakes.

First time I played at MGM Springfield $1/2, I didn't realize they allowed a $5 straddle from any position, which is effectively a $5 button straddle, which is effectively a $1/2/5 game. It was a different stake game than I'd thought I was playing. So if I have to say yes or no to straddles, I'm a no, just for clarity of stakes.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yeah, I saw Allen Kessler post this on facebook a few days back; I wondered when it would get discussed here.

Yeah this just came down last Friday, actually.

It was a different stake game than I'd thought I was playing. So if I have to say yes or no to straddles, I'm a no, just for clarity of stakes.

This is exactly where I am. If players know one straddle is allowed and it's more of an occasion, fine. If it's effectively doubling the stakes every hand, I can see where it's off-putting.

 

[DrStrange]

Seems to me either a straddle or a big blind ante will serve to jack up the stakes. The BBA is worse because it is mandatory whereas the straddle is optional. Either one serves to drive the price sensitive players out of the game.

 

[JustinInMN]

Seems to me either a straddle or a big blind ante will serve to jack up the stakes. The BBA is worse because it is mandatory whereas the straddle is optional. Either one serves to drive the price sensitive players out of the game.

I can come up with two counter arguments that could point to the straddle being worse, if "worse" means raising the stakes unexpected to the stake-sensitive.

1) Straddle is a bigger increase than BBA

The straddle puts two extra BB in the pot every time whereas the BBA is just one BB. So the question of which is worse comes down to the frequency of the straddle. Since the straddle is twice the BBA, that means if the straddle is in play on more than 50% of hands, it is effectively making the stake higher than the BBA in terms of the average starting pot.

2) BBA Transparency

There is something to be said for the transparency of the BBA versus the straddle. The straddle being optional means there is a wider range of possibilities in terms of average starting pot size, whereas the BBA is consistent.

But yes, either the BBA or the straddle will effectively raise the stake compared to a game where neither is permitted. The BBA just seems to be a more measured alternative than "optional" straddles that turn mandatory due to peer pressure.

 

[Labrat]

I'm probably alone on this, but I can't stand straddles and the BBA concept.

If you're going to play the stakes, play the stakes.

 

[Okku]

@doublebooyah85 the Wynn man!

 

[Legend5555]

Seems to me either a straddle or a big blind ante will serve to jack up the stakes. The BBA is worse because it is mandatory whereas the straddle is optional. Either one serves to drive the price sensitive players out of the game.

I can come up with two counter arguments that could point to the straddle being worse, if "worse" means raising the stakes unexpected to the stake-sensitive.

1) Straddle is a bigger increase than BBA

The straddle puts two extra BB in the pot every time whereas the BBA is just one BB. So the question of which is worse comes down to the frequency of the straddle. Since the straddle is twice the BBA, that means if the straddle is in play on more than 50% of hands, it is effectively making the stake higher than the BBA in terms of the average starting pot.

2) BBA Transparency

There is something to be said for the transparency of the BBA versus the straddle. The straddle being optional means there is a wider range of possibilities in terms of average starting pot size, whereas the BBA is consistent.

But yes, either the BBA or the straddle will effectively raise the stake compared to a game where neither is permitted. The BBA just seems to be a more measured alternative than "optional" straddles that turn mandatory due to peer pressure.

Open sizes in have with a straddle are also larger than in games with an ante. At 5-10-20, opens will be $50-60. At 5-10 ante, opens will be $30-40. The straddle makes the game much larger. And it also makes it harder to play from the earlier positions because you have to get through 3 blinds. The ante just makes it so people open and defend wider since the ante is dead. The straddle is live and actually causes tighter play from the earlier positions, and causes open ranges from later position to be tighter as well, because again, more players to get through.

An ante is theory is much better for action.

 

[springbox]

Open sizes in have with a straddle are also larger than in games with an ante. At 5-10-20, opens will be $50-60. At 5-10 ante, opens will be $30-40. The straddle makes the game much larger. And it also makes it harder to play from the earlier positions because you have to get through 3 blinds. The ante just makes it so people open and defend wider since the ante is dead. The straddle is live and actually causes tighter play from the earlier positions, and causes open ranges from later position to be tighter as well, because again, more players to get through.

An ante is theory is much better for action.

This is why I like the concept of antes better. A straddle effectively doubles the stakes, an ante just adds the equivalent of a limper in dead money. Straddles make the game bigger, antes make the game looser. I don't think antes are supposed to change your RFI size too much, mostly just frequency.

Straddles main advantage is that it can be optional, whereas no one would ever choose to do a BBA if it was optional. The problem seems to be 'optional' straddles are slowly turned into mandatory ones.

 

[derekdd23]

I generally dont mind a straddle but totally get this. You signed up to play a certain stake and then people are allowed to effectively halve your effective stack(in terms of BBs) by straddling. I think it is super weird that they still allow this at the lower limits still since those people cant move down any lower in stakes and are forced to be uncomfortable.

The proper solution is to have 2 games, 5/10 NO STRADDLE and 5/10 STRADDLE ALLOWED. Then people know what they are getting into and can choose where to spend their money. Forcing only a single option will likely piss people off and they will play elsewhere. If one of the games doesnt run then so be it, the people have spoken.

 

[asian bino]

I think the poll question needs more options. For example, I don't play 10-20NL, but if I did, I wouldn't want the game to turn into a 10-20-40-80 game. That being said, if the casino doesn't have the manpower to OFFER a 20-40 game, the story changes....also I don't understand the discussion above about the BBA 'needing to trickle down to the lower stakes' and 'becoming the norm.' Every Vegas NL tournament I played this summer was using it, so I don't think it is 'becoming' anything it is HERE. And as far as 'lower stakes' that is usually a term used for cash not tournies, and I don't know of any intersection between the BBA and Cash games.....

 

[Dbxela]

Antes make more action in a game with players that understand theory, and they make a some loose rec actions less bad. Both can be good.

Straddles should make a game nittier. BUT like this thread showed when I asked about antes in small games, a LOT players can't respond rationally to straddles - in a good way (well, maybe not so much for them, but for action). So straddles should be bad, but they could still be fun, depending on the player pool.

The real problem is mandatory straddles, which are just obviously a bigger game, let's just call it 3 blinds. Or optional straddles but with too much social pressure. I think if we can find soft-skill ways to break the social pressure of not straddling, then optional straddles are no problem. My game still has lots of optional straddles (UTG++ only, unlimited) and they are popular, but there has never been a 'let's do a whole round', and the social pressure is appropriately limited towards winners / bigger players.

Would you rather play:
- $15/$30/$60 blinds
- $35/$70 blinds
- $21/$42 with a $42 BB ante $20/$40 with a $40 BB ante

They are all the same 'size'. Ignore chip denoms . GTO will say the last on has more action and the first one has the least. The last one with a genuinely-optional and occasional $80 straddle probably wins (i.e we can never straddle, some people do ) .

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't know of any intersection between the BBA and Cash games...

The article the OP points to (and the sign at the Wynn) says they are adding the BBA to the 5/10 cash game, but dropping the straddle.