Am I a station? Do you call this river jam? (1 Viewer)

[Nanook]

How can this possibly be right?
I think I get what solvers do and I think I understand the point of GTO play, but I find it maddening so I don't really know much about it.
But how can it tell you that GTO play is to jam that river 100% of the time? When V is literally ALWAYS behind here?

EDIT - I suppose the answer is that the solver knows Heros are folding more than 50% of the time here? is that it? If you know you're going to win at least 51% of the time, it's profitable to jam every time?

something like that....

.........Trying to be objective, I can see this sort of aggressive play in frac games and in high stake games where you would expect players to have experience with solvers, but what about the typical $1/$1 - $1/$2 home game and $1/$3 - 2/$5 tables at the casino?

You are kinda touching on where GTO & Solvers don't give the best answer against all types of players.

Granted that the OP did state he was playing anonymous fast fold 6 max on ignition so you have absolutely no read on how your opponent is likely to play other than what you think about how the player pool plays, but.....

Think about the villains play and tell me his play is optimal against a lot of guys that you would be playing with regularly in a 1/2 or 2/5nl game in the local card room that you just know call 100% of the time.

GTO is only optimal against someone that is also playing GTO & almost no one plays this way in a home game or small stakes nl in a card room therefore the river jam is best against a nit that is folding too often but completely wrong against a calling station that calls all the time

 

[boltonguy]

maybe im blacknite. lol.

I dont know if you are calling that jam on the first board with the monotone flop with middle pair it would really make me reconsider your prior posts!

 

[boltonguy]

Think about the villains play and tell me his play is optimal against a lot of guys that you would be playing with regularly in a 1/2 or 2/5nl game in the local card room that you just know call 100% of the time.

GTO is only optimal against someone that is also playing GTO & almost no one plays this way in a home game or small stakes nl in a card room therefore the river jam is best against a nit that is folding too often but completely wrong against a calling station that calls all the time

Absolutely - if you know that your opponent is unbalanced it is your duty to exploit that imbalance and increase your EV! Never bluff a station! Always go big for value against a station! Be unbalanced!

You would only play GTO against a balanced opponent or where you have no reads. Unless a player pool has known tendencies, until you have a read on your opponent IMHO through hand history you cannot exploit them and at the same time you should play GTO so that you cannot be exploited.

 

[davislane]

I dont know if you are calling that jam on the first board with the monotone flop with middle pair it would really make me reconsider your prior posts!

I play against a bunch of maniac gambling degenerates. Playing GTO is negative EV in this game.

I respect your willingness to learn how to play "properly" and putting in the hours to study. At the end of the day, it's fine to make mistakes, so don't be afraid to make what appears like a "light" calls sometimes and paying off better hands. Its also a crucial part of becoming a better player.

 

[Nanook]

Absolutely - if you know that your opponent is unbalanced it is your duty to exploit that imbalance and increase your EV! Never bluff a station! Always go big for value against a station! Be unbalanced!

Correct

You would only play GTO against a balanced opponent or where you have no reads. Unless a player pool has known tendencies, until you have a read on your opponent IMHO through hand history you cannot exploit them and at the same time you should play GTO so that you cannot be exploited.

I think a lot of people actually get themselves in a lot of trouble trying to play GTO live when they really shouldn't be. I would guess that < 25% of the player pool in a live 1/2 or 2/5nl game could even explain what GTO is. Trying to play GTO against that 75%+ of the players is going to give you nightmares

 

[boltonguy]

One thing I would add is that while you definitely want to exploit your opponents'' as much as possible, it can be helpful to work some GTO-type concepts into your play with all players to keep from being exploited yourself. If you are playing your cards predictably, a thinking opponent can and probably will exploit you.

For example the notion of "protecting your checking range" is a GTO notion and relates to the hands that you choose to check, for example on the flop especially when OOP. If you always cbet your strong hands and check your weak hands especially when OOP you will be playing pretty face up and can be exploited. GTO wants to bet your strongest hands (like sets and 2p) and bet some semi-bluffs like FDs while checking medium strength hands like TPGK. That way when you check, you can check/call with decent hands to continue and V cant just blindly fire into you when you check to get a fold. In this sense your checking range is "protected" with these medium strength hands.

There is a dynamic at 25NL Zone on ignition that illustrates this specifically. If I am OOP and I cbet flop, V calls and then I check turn I am going to face a pot sized bet from V with any two cards that call my cbet at a very high frequency. So checking turn with strong holdings can actually make you more money than firing a second barrel. If my checking range wasnt protected with these strong hands V could print by firing pot sized bets into me when I check and exploit me.

So I think that there are some GTO concepts that apply to "balancing" one's defensive play if you are up against a thinking opponent. It will make you harder to play against.

 

[grebe]

Breakeven Percentage on a bluff....or how often a bluff has to work for it to break even over time:

BE= Risk/risk+reward

So for V's river bluff to be profitable: 16.28/16.28+17.41 = 48%. You need to fold about 50% of the time here for Villain to make money.

In game, here are some quick roundoffs for what percent a bluff needs to work for it to be +ev:

Bet size BE%
1/2 pot 33%
2/3 pot 40%
full pot 50%

I was just looking at this for something different, funny it came in handy.

 

[grebe]

Also, people that are poopooing GTO, understand that nobody plays GTO....it just represents the balance between making your opponent indifferent to calling or folding. It is a starting point. How do you know what to do against a player's over tendencies if you dont know what you or he should be doing? GTO represents this balance. The solvers spit out the balance of check/call to show where you cannot be exploited.

If you study GTO, you are looking for the balance and watching to see where your opponents stray from this. Then, you play exploitatively to attack this. An opponent over folds? You bluff. Hyperaggro? You call wider. Opponent never bluffs? You widen your fold range to them. Same stuff any knowledgeable player already does....it just defines the middle better.

 

[Nanook]

...............So I think that there are some GTO concepts that apply to "balancing" one's defensive play if you are up against a thinking opponent. It will make you harder to play against.

There is no question that you are right if as you say "You are up against a thinking opponent", but that just isn't the case most of the time live.

Also, people that are poopooing GTO, understand that nobody plays GTO....it just represents the balance between making your opponent indifferent to calling or folding. It is a starting point. How do you know what to do against a player's over tendencies if you dont know what you or he should be doing? GTO represents this balance. The solvers spit out the balance of check/call to show where you cannot be exploited.

I am poopooing GTO somewhat and exactly for the reason stated here. I play almost exclusively live and almost no one plays GTO well live at lower stakes.

If you study GTO, you are looking for the balance and watching to see where your opponents stray from this. Then, you play exploitatively to attack this. An opponent over folds? You bluff. Hyperaggro? You call wider. Opponent never bluffs? You widen your fold range to them. Same stuff any knowledgeable player already does....it just defines the middle better.

I guess that it depends a lot on the game you are playing in, but for most people that are in the US playing live (= smaller nl games = 1/2nl, 2/5nl) I think it is wise to understand GTO, but unwise to use it as any sort of default strategy because almost 100% of the people playing in those games are extremely UNBalanced & it does not take any sort of rocket science to figure that out.