Can We Get It All? (1 Viewer)

[Kain8]

The game in question started without me, a .25/.50 NL game that just started out as Hold'Em. When I arrived, the most aggressive player at the table by far had a monstrous chip stack, around $350 on a $100 buy-in. And this was only running about 45 minutes prior! The only seats available were on his direct right, or having a player in between me and the aforementioned big stack. The problem was, the potential in between player is a very crafty player who is capable of emptying his clip if he smells weakness. I decided it's better to have position against one of these players, so on my direct left is the biggest stack. I figure it would be a nice challenge, if anything, to see how I can adapt to having such strong aggression acting right after me. Mr. Big Stack habitually 3-bets, because he knows that his post-flop play is miles ahead of most players in this game, and he actually has ranges.

Over the course of the night, more games were introduced. PLO, Scrotum, and Crazy Pineapple were all being played and I've run my stack up to around $350 myself now. Mr. Big Stack and myself are destroying the game, and he has almost $600 in his stack at this point. I joke with him that we'll play a 1,400 bb pot and that'll be just gross! The game continues, and I'm sitting on around $375 and we're playing Hold'Em 6 handed. There's a straddle to $1.50, and the crafty player on my right raises to $6. Crafty player has run up his stack to around $200 at this point and is about dead even on the night.

We're next to act and we look down at .

Mr. Big Stack is still on our direct left and covers us, although he's given a bit back and is sitting around the $500 mark, give or take.

Crafty player doesn't raise preflop without at least a somewhat decent hand, a range of probably top 15% - 20% of hands.

I tended to play small ball this night due to the player on my left, and admittedly didn't have a lot of 3-bets in my arsenal.


What do we do?

 

[BGinGA]

Raise to $22, and hope BigStack makes a move.

 

[Jimulacrum]

How often is Mr Big Stack 3-betting as a squeeze play, and in particular when Crafty makes the opening raise? I almost never advocate this, but it could be a good spot to just flat the raise with aces, planning to come over the top of a 3-bet.

 

[saskbull]

put in 15-25$ raise, hope for a squeeze. yawn and act bored for maximum effect

 

[timinater]

How often is Mr Big Stack 3-betting as a squeeze play, and in particular when Crafty makes the opening raise? I almost never advocate this, but it could be a good spot to just flat the raise with aces, planning to come over the top of a 3-bet.

Had a similar thought, but part of me is concerned I'm worried too much about a guy that hasn't shown any interest in the pot just yet. I think I'm tempted to click it back and allow the Big Stack to goof of here if so inclined.

All of this reeks if FPS though. 400bb's deep I'm most tempted to bump it up somewhere around $18-$25

 

[ekricket]

Raise to $22, and hope BigStack makes a move.

This, my number was 21.

 

[doughboy63]

I flat if I “know” Mr big stack will bump it up and jam his raise. If I’m not sure that he will bump it up I toss in a green chip.

 

[timinater]

I flat if I “know” Mr big stack will bump it up and jam his raise. If I’m not sure that he will bump it up I toss in a green chip.

One chip rule, call. That's having your cake and eating it too.

 

[doughboy63]

I would state raise before tossing in the green.

 

[Forty4]

At first I was in the flat camp but you admitted that you don’t three bet. So a four bet is going to be very polarizing. I think you stand to make more money off of big stack by check calling but then you never really know where you are against his range. I think your best move is to raise and hope big stack comes along with having position on you.

 

[Kain8]

In the moment, I really had one line of thinking. If I cold called, a 3-bet from Mr. Big Stack could occur, especially with me being a cold caller in between himself and Mr. Crafty. I'm not showing much strength just calling the $6, so I decided to under represent.

I call the $6.

Mr. Big Stack does not disappoint and 3-bets, but only to $20.

It folds around to Mr. Crafty who cold calls the $20.

It's back on us, pot is at $47.50 currently, and $14 to call.

Is a 4-bet the only way forward? If so, how much do we make it? Could even more deception lead to a bigger pot post-flop by just calling?

 

[doughboy63]

I hate being multihanded with aces. I push, but I stated this before, I’m not good

 

[WedgeRock]

You can't triple up unless there are two other players in the hand.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Make it $100 over the $20. Maybe even $120 to be on the safe side. The plan is to either get it all in there now, or to get it all in there in a single bet on the flop.

And if everyone folds, winning a 95BB pot uncontested preflop ain't so bad.

One question: Just how aggressive is Mr Big Stack post-flop? If you 4-bet now and then check the flop to him, is he sure to shove at it?

 

[Rhodeman77]

I agree with @Jimulacrum, now is not the time to get tricky. Put in the raise and create the small stack to pot ratio that makes an all in easy on any flop.

 

[WedgeRock]

Crafty isn't raising too wide, so I put him on a hand. He called the 3bet, so rule out small pocket pairs. MBS is gonna open a bit wider, but not ATC. If you've been snug, he has to recognize your call of the raise is not air.

Calling the raise and raising the re-raise is gonna look like a monster. I don't hate flatting and taking control on a dry board. But against two players, I'd be happy to take it down here. I like a raise of $95-$125. I think that'll iso you against just one. MBS either shoves or folds. Hoping crafty does the opposite of whatever MBS does.

 

[BGinGA]

It's back on us, pot is at $47.50 currently, and $14 to call.

I think a bit, announce "raise" throwing in $14, think a bit more, and then toss in another $100 with "a hundo on top". Good with anything that happens from here out, and won't be surprised if one has Queens and the other has Jacks (and both just call). AA and/or AK are somewhat unlikely, given our hand. And if Crafty had Kings (or Aces), I think he would have popped BigStack's raise himself.

 

[colter ripton]

I kinda like flatting here. If you flat there is no way either person will put you on aces. I agree that playing aces multi way isnt very good, but 3 handed isnt so bad. You are still very likely to have the best hand after the flop. I think a big 4bet makes it pretty unlikley that either will call.

I dont know...... I almost always raise aces preflop so that's probably what I would do. Flat calling here is an interesting thought though.

 

[Kain8]

***Results***





Well, I was doing cartwheels in my head after the 3-bet, but even more elated when I saw Mr. Crafty call too.

I paused for a moment to think how much to re-raise and went for another $85 on top. Mr. Big Stack goes into the tank and is really trying to put the pieces together. He's going to move in, he's going to move in, I think he's going to do it! And then he mucks, followed by Mr. Crafty patting me on the back and telling me how my raise is so good in this spot, and he lays it down too.

Mr. Big Stack then shows me his holding of and asks me if he made a good fold. I give him a non-committal nod and tell him that it might have been a good laydown.

Not a double up, but profit is profit.

 

[Gobbs]

My goal here is to play AA two-handed.

I have no problem with just calling the initial raise from Mr. Crafty (as you did). From what you say, Mr. Big was likely to three-bet (allowing you to call/raise) and, it sounds like a three-bet to $23 (which would have been my three-bet amount) could quite possibly have gotten two callers.

Now that Mr. Big three-bet to $20 and Mr. Crafty called, putting about $46 in the pot, you have to raise here. Calling here could get you in trouble. What do you do if the flop comes out something like or ? You know, between the two players, you are quite possibly facing one decent pair; you need to try to narrow the ranges so that it's less likely a decent pair hits the flop. It's one thing to be facing JJ, it's another to be facing, potentially, JJ and TT.

A big raise probably gets a hand like nines, tens, and maybe jacks to fold (or any lesser pair). A call/raise, especially against a stack that has you covered, would tell me you are likely sitting on QQ, KK, AA, or AK and I'm likely folding anything less. Also, maybe you get really lucky and Mr. Big may be holding KK and five-bets you (unlikely Mr. Craft has KK). Now you have bingo. Also, although a bit unlikely, what if an ace hits on the flop? You may not get any more action.

I think a big raise is appropriate here. If you take down the pot with it, fine. The pot is a significant chunk of change already, most of it was not yours to start, and there is no guarantee a call gets more in the pot. I'm trying to size my bet to get me heads-up. The problem is, Mr. Crafty may be more likely to call if Mr. Big calls - you have to take that into account. So, I think you have to go at least $100 here, maybe even $120 on top. Hopefully, that gets you one caller with a hand like QQ.

POSTED ABOVE SAME TIME AS RESULTS - ADDENDUM BELOW

AK did not seem like a likely hand for Mr. Big, but I have to agree, I'm folding his hand (and probably not tanking long to do it). I can't help but put you on AA, KK, QQ, or AK (and not likely AK). With that range, my AK is simply no good.

 

[Jimulacrum]

A hand like AK can be hard to get away from, especially for an aggressive player who should expect his opponents to occasionally make plays at him. For him to fold AK here, he has to be pretty sure you have either AA or KK (maybe QQ, which wouldn't open your range up enough to make it worth getting involved).

That's an awfully whittled-down range. Makes me wonder just how nitty of a table image you have with this crowd. Granted, it was a 4-bet, but with most players who aren't exceptionally tight, you can include a wider variety of hands in their range than just the top two or three pairs. Sometimes they get disproportionately involved with small and middle pairs because they "put you on AK," or with AQs because they "put you on a middle pair," or they make a move with much less because they "could tell you had nothing."

But in your case, two otherwise actiony players tucked tail and ran without even seeing a flop. As someone who often finds himself in the shoes of the actiony players, I can tell you that I'm not folding AK against a lot of players who 4-bet me in a spot like this, especially with it playing out weird like it did. The UTG backraise is a classic AA/KK move, but flatting a raise and then 4-betting when it comes back to you seems like you have a hand you don't know what to do with. It's awkward enough that I have to consider the possibility that you flatted with a mediocre hand, and you're just making a move because you read weakness in my 3-bet or something. That's what makes it a good play with AA, if you act it out right. (Hint: Maybe make it look like you're thinking about what to do for a little while before acting.)

The times I will fold a hand as strong as AK in this kind of spot are when the person who 4-bet is very nitty. I have a few opponents in my regular weekly game who are like this, and when they start breaking out the big raises, it's the easiest folding I've ever done. It makes me feel like maybe you're the kind of guy who plays very snugly all the time, and your opponents all know it. Of course, this is sometimes the right way to get the money, even if the table knows what you're doing, but when you run into a spot like this, it may mean that a lack of balance in your range is costing you money.

That said, winning a 90BB+ pot uncontested preflop ain't a bad outcome. Better than flat-calling and ending up stacking off against who-knows-what.

 

[markleteenie]

I hate being multihanded with aces. I push, but I stated this before, I’m not good

^^^this, both parts.