Cheating with shuffle machines? (3 Viewers)

[Lil Tuna]

And that’s where I wash my hands of this theory entirely. Once a casino starts involving dealers in intentionally cheating players, they’ve instantly made that employee far more expensive than however much they could make by maxing out their rake.
I agree that it’s possible. I agree players should be wary. But I’m not concerned about this in a regulated casino.

The dealers don’t have to be knowingly involved. Cutting the deck pre deal is just doing their jobs. Not cutting a deck almost perfect every time by a professional dealer would seem more suspicious to me than not.

And it’s not all shuffle machines that I’ve specifically noticed the difference in how hands run out, my crazy insane thoughts are SPECIFICALLY pertained to DM2 only shufflers.

 

[Darson]

Possibly.
When I shuffle chips while sitting at the table I usually prefer to shuffle 12 but sometimes I’ll do 14. I’m not a professional chip shuffler but I typically can cut an even amount almost every time I go to shuffle.
Can a shuffle machine that can put a completely shuffled deck back in order also account for a cut by a professional dealer if it’s predetermining a winning seat?

The cut is going to reorder the deck and cutting at exactly the same place every time would need some serious skill on the part of the dealer. Even 1 card different is going to change what cards get dealt to which player. 2 cards different and the hand destined for the target player is going to someone either side of them.

Now one could argue that the shuffler could stack the deck with more face cards on the bottom half which then become the top half when cut - leading to more face cards being dealt creating more action, more hands connected with the flop so more rake. But staking the deck to benefit a particular seat is gonna be very difficult - nearly impossible. And don't forget that this implies that the card room, dealer and target player are all in this together. Highly unlikely.

 

[Kensco]

I believe the DM2 is made by Shufflemaster. It’s basically the latest and greatest version of the original Shufflemaster shufflers.
The original Shufflemaster started showing up in AC casinos around the 2008 time frame and seemed like it did a great job of speeding up the game.

As the technology improved and the machines started doing more than JUST speeding up the shuffling process is when I personally noticed the difference in hand action.
The DM2 has a “sort mode” that it can be put in. The “sort mode” can put a randomly shuffled deck of cards back in its original fresh from the pack order. I witnessed this at Maryland Live casino once and it instantly created many questions for me about the legitimacy of these machines.

Anyways, you can take my opinion however you like. I’ve played in the game long enough to know that I’ll only sit in games that are HAND shuffled going forward.
If this means I never play cards in a major casino again, that’s just fine by me. It’s way more fun being at the table with just PCF members or your local group of regulars.
DM2 casino poker is the worst kind of poker IMO. Spend a couple hundred hours of your life playing it and you’ll have a full understanding.

All the best.

Surely then it's also capable of putting certain cards into play to bump up action & rake amounts. Not hard to believe that if it is programmable it will be "set" to do certain things. I'm with the OP on this, my trust level is very low.

 

[Lil Tuna]

The cut is going to reorder the deck and cutting at exactly the same place every time would need some serious skill on the part of the dealer. Even 1 card different is going to change what cards get dealt to which player. 2 cards different and the hand destined for the target player is going to someone either side of them.

Now one could argue that the shuffler could stack the deck with more face cards on the bottom half which then become the top half when cut - leading to more face cards being dealt creating more action, more hands connected with the flop so more rake. But staking the deck to benefit a particular seat is gonna be very difficult - nearly impossible. And don't forget that this implies that the card room, dealer and target player are all in this together. Highly unlikely.

I completely agree with you that it would be difficult to manipulate the situation to a particular winning seat although I’ve heard it mentioned by others I’ve known to question the DM2.

My specific thoughts mostly pertained to the DM2 creating more “action” type deals which in turn would most likely create maximum rake. As I mentioned in a post somewhere in this thread, the last hand of poker I ever played that was dealt with a DM2 was at MGM National Harbor.
My pocket QQs flopped set over set over set to pocket JJs and pocket 10s.
Needless to say the money all got in on the flop.

 

[ekricket]

And don't forget that this implies that the card room, dealer and target player are all in this together. Highly unlikely.

Just gonna say Mike Postle

 

[Taghkanic]

IDGI.

Seems to me the supposed goal of creating big cooler hands is at odds with the obvious goal of maximizing hands per hour.

Big hands take a lot longer than “ordinary” hands. They tend to involve multiple players doing a lot of thinking on every street.

Sure, one giant hand might generate a ton of rake. But if it leads to 20 minutes of tanking… Not sure that is worth it in the long run.

What am I missing here?

P.S. At my most usual casino, the dealer has a little LED screen in addition to the shuffler which logs you in if you have a card, or indicates that a seat is full if a player has no card/declines to login. This gets you points (not many) for food etc. The floor periodically reminds dealers to “update your Bravos” so these are feeding the central system tracking how many tables are going and where there are any open seats.

 

[Rakrul]

We're way into flat earth territory here, if we're talking about casinos.

 

[khp]

If the casino could choose, wouldn’t it want to avoid coolers? Cooler = higher chance the players that got stacked leave and therefore pay less rake?

 

[Highli99]

I completely agree with you that it would be difficult to manipulate the situation to a particular winning seat although I’ve heard it mentioned by others I’ve known to question the DM2.

My specific thoughts mostly pertained to the DM2 creating more “action” type deals which in turn would most likely create maximum rake. As I mentioned in a post somewhere in this thread, the last hand of poker I ever played that was dealt with a DM2 was at MGM National Harbor.
My pocket QQs flopped set over set over set to pocket JJs and pocket 10s.
Needless to say the money all got in on the flop.

This is the same argument for saying online poker is rigged.

I think a valid point about shufflers in casinos is that they increase casino profit by having more hands dealt compared to hand shuffles. More hands = more rake. For skilled players more hands also = more profit. More hands also means more coolers. That’s why we see those kind of hands more often online. For instance, here’s a royal flush I made in holdem last night.

That’s the first holdem royal I’ve made in 3 years of online play roughly 600 hours per year. But I’ve seen a couple others.

Casinos profit from volume. The inflated pots are a function of skilled players knowing that limping is -EV in raked games and bad players calling raises to see flops with bad hands. That’s it.

Fwiw I almost never play in casinos because I’m not allowed to in Maryland and getting to vegas is a rare treat. Plus, home games are more fun and I play poker for fun, not to make a living. And rake sucks. But my reasons for not playing in casinos are not the deckmates.

 

[Eriks]

This discussion sounds a lot like the whole online-poker-is-rigged one. Not saying it couldn’t happen but I don’t really see how it would be worth the trouble/risk for the casinos.

Like I’ve mentioned, take a couple hundred hours of your life and experience for one’s self.

Even if you watch/play at a specific table for 200 hours, what will it really tell you? How many hands per hour can they deal, 20-30? That’s 4000-6000 hands. Hardly a large enough sample to draw any statistically valid conclusions.

 

[natumes]

Decks can be ordered in such a way that no matter where it is cut, a certain position will win. Simple algorithms can find these, complex algorithms possibly finding very good solutions. Casinos have shills in poker games.

Now connect those 2 things. It's not 100% infallible, I don't think it could reliably bring in the jackpots (it's possible though), but do you really think a casino wouldn't take that edge?

 

[ekricket]

Fwiw I almost never play in casinos because I’m not allowed to in Maryland

Sounds like a good story here…..

 

[Highli99]

Sounds like a good story here…..

I really wish it was because one of my life goals is to get banned from a casino for inexplicitly winning too much. Sadly, it's just because my employer audits the MD lottery, which regulates the casinos here.

 

[BGinGA]

This just in:

The sky is falling.

 

[krafticus]

One of my last home game, which is self dealt pass the deal, we had so many coolers. AA vs KK vs QQ vs AK twice …

Must have been some crazy collusion and such. That never happens without a fine tuned shuffler trying to maximize hands per hour and more take (which the house doesn’t take)

Of course, YMMV.

Also , my tables were level and the cards slid flat, so the earth is 100% flat.

Oh, and … Never mind….

 

[Kensco]

The machine shuffles, can ensure the deck has 52 unsullied cards with the proper cards comprising the deck.

What possible legitimate reason is there for that same machine to be able to manipulate the deck in to a pre-arranged order? (asking for a friend )

 

[upNdown]

The machine shuffles, can ensure the deck has 52 unsullied cards with the proper cards comprising the deck.

What possible legitimate reason is there for that same machine to be able to manipulate the deck in to a pre-arranged order? (asking for a friend )

It’s customary to suit up a setup every now and then - you see them do it at every break during a tournament, or sometimes if a card hits the floor. And they always lay them out face-up on the table for everyone and the cameras to see. Letting the shuffler do that saves the dealer time?