Compression clay manufacturers - let me get this straight (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

I just came across this thread recently, and I wanted to let you know that there may be at least one manufacturer of compression clay molded chips in the United States that has been overlooked.

According to Robert Eisenstadt’s clay chip rim mold guide, http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesign_other.htm, K.P Gaming Supplies is an American Indian owned gambling supply business that has apparently been manufacturing molded clay chips since the mid-1990s. I believe that they produce two styles of compression clay chips, which they sell to Indian casinos and card rooms, mainly in California, one an “Aztec” design, and the other a 4 suits, and Thunderbird design. I've posted a photo I just took of the two chip mold designs, below. I've handled stacks of the chips, and they are very nice chips, more similar to Paulsons than anything else.

They must be a really small company, because there is almost no information about them on the internet. Eisenstadt lists them as being located at 12121 Madera Way, Riverside CA 92503, however I found their very minimal Facebook page, which lists there address as 210 Crourse Dr., Corona, CA 92879. The link to their website on the Facebook page goes to a non-gambling related Chinese language website.

Here is their minimal and Facebook page; https://www.facebook.com/pages/K-P-Gaming-Supplies/115448448477960


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I got the Red Fox chips today. I only got to play with them for a second before running out again. But if these things are clay, I'll eat one.
I'll do some experiments later and post.

 

[BukNaked36]

it's really mostly just American casinos that use clay chips, right? And with the plastics and ceramics, Clay might only be half of the American market. But that's still a lot of casinos.

I had never thought about this before. Are clay chips really only an American thing and only half of the American market?

I've seen plenty of ceramics around but it's usually the smaller casino's. I've always thought the vast majority of US casino chips were clay.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Clay chips are an American invention, but their use has spread around the world, although jetons, plaques, and other plastic chips (e.g. RT Plastics) may still more popular in some parts of Europe. It I recall correctly ceramic chips peaked in popularity around the early 2000s, and then declined in popularity because casinos realized that they were inherently less secure than other types of chips that had some type of edge design that went through the body of the chip. My impression is that most chips issued by major casinos in Las Vegas are still clay, some plastic, and very few ceramic.

 

[upNdown]

I got the Red Fox chips today. I only got to play with them for a second before running out again. But if these things are clay, I'll eat one.
I'll do some experiments later and post.

Feed me a chip.
They felt lighter, and sounded way brighter than a clay chip. And whatever the printing is on these things, it's not a hotstamp or an inlay - it just looked cheap to me. So I assumed they were plastic.
But the weight isn't that far off - I'd estimate just under 8 grams, based on an improvised balancing scale.
They break just like a clay chip with an easy snap. They look like a clay chip on the inside. And they behaved similarly to a Paulson when I put a blow torch on them - they charred a bit and deformed a bit, but didn't really burn.
I'm no expert, but I'm guessing they're compressed clay.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

Thanks upNdown for sacrificing a Red Fox clay chip in the name of science! Now that I think of it, I'm not sure if I know of any other clay chips that have printed ink directly on them, rather than a hot stamp or an inlay. The fact that the interior area is recessed probably helps in reducing wear.

Now we just need a Native American member of the Pokerchipforum to organize a group buy.

 

[Blaster]

Most China clays snap easily, although I'm not sure how they take flame..

 

[upNdown]

Most China clays snap easily, although I'm not sure how they take flame..

one way to find out

 

[upNdown]

I burned a milano. It burned very differently from the other two chips - after it was removed from the torch, the flame engulfed it and it continued to burn, like a marshmallow, and it bent and deformed significantly - more like you'd expect a plastic to behave. It also gave off some funky smells while burning, so if I don't wake up in the morning, you'll know what happened.

 

[BGinGA]

Play safe when torching poker chips (especially anything made in China) .... lots of ventilation flow to the outside, or wear a respirator.

Next up...... ceramics! even though i already know the answer

 

[upNdown]

Play safe when torching poker chips (especially anything made in China) .... lots of ventilation flow to the outside, or wear a respirator.

Next up...... ceramics! even though i already know the answer

I'm told they're made from polyester or some such, so I expect they'd burn pretty good. But that particular experiment isn't relevant to the present question, so, despite being a pyro at heart, I'll spare my chips and pass for now.

 

[Wils]

Play safe when torching poker chips

I honestly thought the next bit was going to be "...only burn Milano's"

 

[upNdown]

Fwiw, I took a few more pictures with a macro lense. I'm not sure what the inside of a clay chip is supposed to look like. So I guess we need to look to the Orange Paulson.
And these Red Foxes look very similar to me.
Then I brought in the gray China clay chip, and at first it looked very similar too. Then I noticed the imperfections - they look like worm holes. These seem scattered throughout the China clay chip, but are nowhere to be found on the other two.

 

[Blaster]

I think there may be many inconsistencies & differences between various " China Clays" , I remember 8-10 years ago, Joe at PGI posting about working with the factory tweaking the formula, calcium carbonate, ect on the Wall & other CCs he imported.
Not sure what may be in the Milanos or other CC's now, or if any mineral content is even still in them ...

 

[BGinGA]

Not sure what may be in the Milanos or other CC's now, or if any mineral content is even still in them ...

I definitely agree that the more recently-produced china clays seem to be a lot more 'plastic' than the original spirit molds and PGI's first cc offerings.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

I definitely agree that the more recently-produced china clays seem to be a lot more 'plastic' than the original spirit molds and PGI's first cc offerings.

I'd second that! Just rubbing two of the old pgi's and two majestics together tells you everything you need to know.
Both are decent quality chips with differing +/-'s but for me, solely based on "feel" the old cc's are far and away better.

 

[upNdown]

I'm kind of becoming a fan of these. They have a nice feel and this mold feels really funky to shuffle.

 

[upNdown]

Just got a scale.
Those red foxes weigh an average of 8.4 grams each - pretty light.

Those Perchangas weigh 8.7 grams each and feel a lot like CPC's to me. If I had to guess, I'd go with @Jeff in Iowa supposition that they were manufactured by ASM or CPC.
Any thoughts? @BGinGA ?

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

upNdown, nice photo of the edges. They really look like brass flakes, and I didn't notice them on the one Pechanga chip that I had. I should have looked more closely. Burt/ASM/CPC is the only company that I know of that uses that brass flake method of making their chips. So this would point to ASM/CPC as being the manufacturer of chips on that mold.

I had originally assumed that the Aztez Pyramid mold and the Four Suits Thunderbird mold were controlled by the same company (K.P Gaming Supplies) because Indian casinos that use one mold, often have some chips on the other mold. For example, the Pechanga Casino in San Diego has chips on both of those molds; http://www.themogh.org/cg_chip2.php?id=CATEPC

Robert Eisenstadt on his edge mold design website only identified the Aztec mold as being controlled by K.P Gaming Supplies, and lists the Thunderbird mold as unknown.
It turns out the Thunderbird mold was definitely controlled by a different company. I came across a Thunderbird mold salesman sample chip posted by Jerry Birl on The Chipboard. http://www.thechipboard.com/index.cgi/md/read/id/1436666/sbj/auction-sale-on-some-unusual-chips/ (upper right corner).

The chip was issued by the International Thunderbird Gaming Corporation. I tried calling their Las Vegas phone number, but it was disconnected. According to a Google search, the International Thunderbird Gaming Corporation was incorporated in 1996, and has its headquarters in Panama City, Panama. In 2010, they became a subsidiary of the Alta Cordillera company. They control several casinos in Panama and other parts of Latin America. So this sample chip was made some time after 1996.

While International Thunderbird probably owns the cups, ASM may have held (and continue to hold) the mold cups at their facility, and manufactured the chips whenever they got an order from Thunderbird Gaming. The relationship between ASM/CPC, Thunderbird International, and their 4 Suits Thunderbird mold may have been similar to the relationship between ASM/CPC, Marion & Co., and their Elephant & Crown mold. The mold cups are owned by Marion & Co, but held by CPC. The Elephant & Crown mold design only showed up on the CPC website this year, after Marion & Co. agreed to allow CPC to "open" the mold to regular customers

David Spragg (owner of CPC) should be able to clarify if my deductions and suppositions are correct about all of this, if he sees this post, or if someone were to ask him.

All of the above, however, does not solve the mystery of who manufactured the Aztec Pyramid mold chips.

 

[lee123china]

The fact that there isnt a company offering Paulson quality chips to the global market blows my mind. Surely some of the 7.5 billion people on earth would like to own some decent clay chips at a reasonable price?

I don't know why Paulson stopped selling to home market.

 

[MrCatPants]

I don't know why Paulson stopped selling to home market.

My guess is one of two things - either business or security:

Nickels and dimes (comparitively) take a different business model and production process etc. than huge corporate orders. Most companies have a market they target and have trouble when they try to stray away from it. Some business models work big and small scale (e.g. Salesforce.com, Home Depot, etc.) but some don't. They may have just struggled to make it work.

On the security side, casinos may not have felt safe that you have home market chips running around that could be pretty close to what they're dealing with. Then they have to double down on checking for counterfeits, etc. and may have threatened to go to another manufacturer if Paulson didn't shut the home line down.

 

[lee123china]

My guess is one of two things

Good reasons thanks for sharing. No matter for what reasons they stopped, I hope Paulson come back to the home market.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

I hope so too. Even if it's on their BCC line using only the sun mold. I just miss looking g at the super ballers that sprung for sets from BCC.
Lady luck club and Silver Dust instantly come to mind.

 

[MrCatPants]

I hope so too. Even if it's on their BCC line using only the sun mold. I just miss looking g at the super ballers that sprung for sets from BCC.
Lady luck club and Silver Dust instantly come to mind.

Just looked at those. Man, they look nice.

 

[duffman]

I was curious myself, so I snagged a lot of 10 Red Fox Casino chips off eBay recently. Snapped a pic of the rolling edges. I noticed they have what appears to be dimples on the rolling edges leftover from the manufacturing process. The chips feel and sound great. They handle very much like a compression molded chip. While I really want to believe they are compression molded, my gut tells me injection molded. @upNdown Do your chips have these dimples? Thoughts?

 

[GIANTDustySquid]

Pretty close. Early on, both the US Playing Card Co. and the Portland Billiard Ball Company produced chips. PBBC changed their name to Burt Co., bought out USPC in 1947, and was purchased and renamed to Atlantic Standard Molding (ASM), which was sold and renamed American Standard Molding (ASM), which later morphed into Classic Poker Chips (CPC) that we know today.

Almost all of the older stuff in the US was made by USPC and Burt Co. and sold by a bunch of different distributor companies (who often represented themselves as manufacturers, but weren't). The Christy & Jones top hat & cane chips were produced by Burt Co., as were the early Paulson chips.

Hispania Casino Equipment Co. (located in Spain) is another defunct clay chip manufacturer (1977-2008) - they produced clay chips on the scroll mold, sold mostly in southern Europe, Central and South American, and the Caribbean. Nevada Jacks purchased the Hispania assets in 2008, and eventually resold them to PGI. The Nevada Jacks line was later sold to ABC.

So the list is really even shorter than you think -- it's just these six companies who have made compression-molded clay chips:

USPC
Portland / Burt / ASM / ASM / CPC
T R King
Paulson
Blue Chip Co (BCC)
Hispania

Bud Jones, Langworthy, and a few other companies made high-quality poker chips, but did not manufacture compression-molded clay chips.
.

You are a disgusting plethora of knowledge in this department

 

[upNdown]

I was curious myself, so I snagged a lot of 10 Red Fox Casino chips off eBay recently. Snapped a pic of the rolling edges. I noticed they have what appears to be dimples on the rolling edges leftover from the manufacturing process. The chips feel and sound great. They handle very much like a compression molded chip. While I really want to believe they are compression molded, my gut tells me injection molded. @upNdown Do your chips have these dimples? Thoughts?

View attachment 152808 View attachment 152809

Wow, mine do have those marks too. They’re so small, I never noticed them.
I guess I’d have to go with your theory until somebody comes up with a better explanation.

 

[Nick@TPS]

FWIW I just spoke to John, the former owner of KP Gaming. KP is no longer in business.
He said that TRKing made the Thunderbirds for them and a R.T. Plastics made the Aztec chips.

KP currently and has never manufactured those 2 chips never manufactured any clay chips.

 

[DeeVee8]

I burned a milano. It burned very differently from the other two chips - after it was removed from the torch, the flame engulfed it and it continued to burn, like a marshmallow, and it bent and deformed significantly - more like you'd expect a plastic to behave. It also gave off some funky smells while burning, so if I don't wake up in the morning, you'll know what happened.

This may be my new favorite post on pcf.

 

[Tommy]

Do your chips have these dimples? Thoughts?

Those look like tree marks. Like how the parts from a model kit come.

 

[TripleRangeMerger]

Pretty close. Early on, both the US Playing Card Co. and the Portland Billiard Ball Company produced chips. PBBC changed their name to Burt Co., bought out USPC in 1947, and was purchased and renamed to Atlantic Standard Molding (ASM), which was sold and renamed American Standard Molding (ASM), which later morphed into Classic Poker Chips (CPC) that we know today.

Almost all of the older stuff in the US was made by USPC and Burt Co. and sold by a bunch of different distributor companies (who often represented themselves as manufacturers, but weren't). The Christy & Jones top hat & cane chips were produced by Burt Co., as were the early Paulson chips.

Hispania Casino Equipment Co. (located in Spain) is another defunct clay chip manufacturer (1977-2008) - they produced clay chips on the scroll mold, sold mostly in southern Europe, Central and South American, and the Caribbean. Nevada Jacks purchased the Hispania assets in 2008, and eventually resold them to PGI. The Nevada Jacks line was later sold to ABC.

So the list is really even shorter than you think -- it's just these six companies who have made compression-molded clay chips:

USPC
Portland / Burt / ASM / ASM / CPC
T R King
Paulson
Blue Chip Co (BCC)
Hispania

Bud Jones, Langworthy, and a few other companies made high-quality poker chips, but did not manufacture compression-molded clay chips.
.

Were the George & Co chips (for example the Md-72 “flower mold”) not compression clay? I can’t seem to find a definitive answer online. Sets of them pop up for sale around me a few times a year, and I never know if I should be trying to acquire them or not.