eBay is filthy with Cleveland Horseshoes (3 Viewers)

[upNdown]

And everybody's trying to double (or triple) their money.
I don't begrudge anybody for selling their crap for what it's worth, but this kind of reeks of desperation.
And I suppose it's easier to flip these things if you've been in the game for a while and you're ass deep in chips. But for me, these things are pretty cool. They're far from the best chips ever, but I'd much rather keep them for the short money I paid, than flip them for a few hundred dollars profit.

 

[detroitdad]

I love the one dollar chip. If I didn't get the PNY chips I would still have mine.

Great set of chips, even better for the price

 

[manamongkids]

And everybody's trying to double (or triple) their money.
I don't begrudge anybody for selling their crap for what it's worth, but this kind of reeks of desperation.
And I suppose it's easier to flip these things if you've been in the game for a while and you're ass deep in chips. But for me, these things are pretty cool. They're far from the best chips ever, but I'd much rather keep them for the short money I paid, than flip them for a few hundred dollars profit.

Not everyone paid pre sale prices, some overpaid and are trying to recoup their losses

 

[GoStumpy]

Not everyone paid pre sale prices, some overpaid and are trying to recoup their losses

I wouldn't rush to 'overpaid'.... there is only one pre-sale, once Jim sold all the chips the prices will fluctuate and eventually find their 'value', and I'm confident they will still only go up in value from here... so nobody 'overpaid', they merely didn't get a screaming deal like a bunch of people got for being in the hobby and available and quick on the trigger.

 

[ovo]

Jim probably gave up trying to keep track of flippers

 

[DJ Mack]

There's also the eBay factor. You lose 10-20% right out of the gate by the time you subtract their fees (which they include on the shipping costs too) plus PayPal. At this point I don't begrudge anybody for asking whatever they want for something. Jim is all out. It sure as hell doesn't mean I'm going to pay it though. Likewise if the market doesn't like the price then the item doesn't sell and the seller is out the insertion fee and has to pay to list it again if they so desire, plus the fees when it does eventually sell.
However trying to flip shit before the main sale has even occurred is slimy, but again, if some idiot is willing to pay what you're asking even though the chips could be had in the main sale for much cheaper, well that's his problem.

 

[pltrgyst]

"eBay is filthy with Cleveland Horseshoes" -- good. Leaves the good stuff for the rest of us.
:

 

[upNdown]

Also, I have no idea what kind of animal could sleep with these in their house. Hose them off or throw them in the garage!

 

[Rhodeman77]

I don't understand why anyone's cares what people are listing their stuff on eBay for?

The market will determine the value, and has for the most part already. Overpriced chips will go unsold like anything else would. Either the seller will lower the price to where the chips will sell or will be stuck with them. Nobody is forced to buy these chips.

 

[DJ Mack]

I don't understand why anyone's cares what people are listing their stuff on eBay for?

Honestly, I think people are afraid. When it's Wynn chips everyone chuckles nervously and watches each successive sale go down with interest because those initially came from some faceless seller. A few jokes get made, eyes roll and two weeks later they're on the market again.

But when it comes to the HS CLE, Jim did the community a solid as usual. The average person was able to get some really kickass Paulson sets built without mortgaging the house. And not surprisingly, some jerks took advantage of that. Jim could have easily charged double, especially on the higher denoms, and while he wouldn't have sold out immediately I'm quite sure he would have sold them all. In some ways we're seeing this with the HS CIN chips. The $1s and $5s are 20 cents more than Jim's pre-sale. The $2s are going for more than they would have cost to buy when they were live and the higher denoms are not available at all unless you drop some big bucks on a set.

So when people see these in particular being flipped so high so soon I think people are afraid that when the next big one comes Jim is going to say "screw these asshats. Why should I let some random schmuck make more per chip than I am when I took all the risk and did all the upfront work?" It's no secret that Jim doesn't like flippers. Short of bribing politicians to pass some anti-scalping laws like the concert venues do, the only way to clip their wings is to charge close to what the market will bear. That wouldn't be pleasant for anybody. And from a pure business perspective I couldn't fault him one bit if that's the approach he took. That line of thinking has folks nervous.

 

[BGinGA]

It's the greedy geese that killed the golden egg syndrome.

 

[Psypher1000]

In some ways we're seeing this with the HS CIN chips. The $1s and $5s are 20 cents more than Jim's pre-sale.

I generally agree with your post, however I suspect this is probably a bit independent of Jim's sale. Todd has historically sold chips at reasonable prices, but closer to a "normal" market price than what Jim does. His pricing for the Cincy chips seems to be keeping that trend.

 

[DJ Mack]

I generally agree with your post, however I suspect this is probably a bit independent of Jim's sale. Todd has historically sold chips at reasonable prices, but closer to a "normal" market price than what Jim does. His pricing for the Cincy chips seems to be keeping that trend.

Yes I hesitated to mention Todd's sale, but to the paranoid amongst us it represents a data point, and a fairly comparable one in terms of size and attractiveness of the chips. If Todd makes a solid go of it why wouldn't Jim take notice?

Having said that I will be watching the CIN sale closely. I wonder if we are going to see a different kind of flipping where folks sell off the chips that can't be bought at prices far more than they would be proportionally. Todd has encouraged people to break up the sets. The quesition though is what prices will be commanded.

 

[pltrgyst]

I don't understand why anyone's cares what people are listing their stuff on eBay for?....

I suspect because they take these ads as an indication that numerous people are buying large numbers of chips through PCF with no intention of using or collecting them, but rather explicitly to re-sell for profit. They probably resent those chips not having been available in the pre-sale or final sale to actual chippers.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I suspect because they take these ads as an indication that numerous people are buying large numbers of chips through PCF with no intention of using or collecting them, but rather explicitly to re-sell for profit. They probably resent those chips not having been available in the pre-sale or final sale to actual chippers.

I could slightly agree with that if the chips were $100 and higher chips.

Most of what is on eBay for 2 to 3 times its actually value are $1, $5 $25 and a barrel of $100 chips. Pretty much all easily available at near to the same price as the last sale Jim had here in the classifieds.

If someone on here can't find a cash game set for less than what they are seeing in eBay, they have a problem.

With Jim putting limits on the high value chips he did a good job for the most part of making sure most of the chips went to people that will actually use them.

Those eBay sellers are trying to take advantage of people that don't know this site exists. And for the relatively small investment they made to buy those cash sets if they can find a sucker to pay 2 or 3 thousand for them, it's an easy gamble. If they don't sell, they keep them or sell them for what they paid and all they are out is the time and energy to list them.

 

[Marius L]

Those eBay sellers are trying to take advantage of people that don't know this site exists. And for the relatively small investment they made to buy those cash sets if they can find a sucker to pay 2 or 3 thousand for them, it's an easy gamble. If they don't sell, they keep them or sell them for what they paid and all they are out is the time and energy to list them.

I agree, and even though its bad form i cant really blame them for trying. The chips are actually really good looking and its understandable that people ouside of the pcf community could pay a bit more for them. Are these sets on eBay actually selling though, or just sitting there at high prices with 0 bids?

 

[Rhodeman77]

I haven't seen any of them sell, and most likely they won't. But all it takes is one sale to make it all worth while.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Jim sold out of his 400k+ HS chips in a matter of weeks. He can now literally buy a mansion from the profits in most metropolitan areas. I don't think he was intentionally pricing his high demon chips as low as he did relative to their market values. It's not like he's been active on here following the market. For years, people have been asking if he's even still around. He never participates in the forums outside of his for sale threads. I think he priced all the chips at about 75 to 80% of what HE thought they were worth because he knew he'd be selling them for YEARS if he were to sell them at full market pricing. Once he realized that the higher denom chips were worth even more than he originally thought, he raised his prices on them accordingly.

Todd seems to be taking a different approach. He wants full market value (and in some cases, above market value IMO) for his chips and is probably OK with selling through them over the next few years to maximize profits (he's still trying to sell through the garden city chips on eBay to this day). I'll be shocked if he sells more than a few of his high denom sets on new years day. He got some great chips and wants to maximize his profits on them. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a different strategy than Jim took. Jim now gets to kick back and relax while he swims in our money, while Todd will probably be working quite a bit more to sell through his over time.

No one took advantage of Jim. He set the prices as he saw fit to unload them as fast as he could. The market will ALWAYS dictate the prices of chips. Find me any other business where the middleman recieves full retail prices for their truckloads of merchandise. He definitely tried to maximize his profits. He just didn't know quite what they would be worth at first.

A lot of people's collections here took a big hit in value when these chips hit the market. Jim withheld his chip counts until after the sale for a reason (one which couldn't possibly have been anything other than self serving). Would you liked to have known that there were almost as many 25k chips in circulation as there were 5k chips? I sure would have before I bought two racks of them off the secondary market. Also, some of us were rather disappointed with the condition of the used Horseshoe Cleveland chips after receiving them. I bought thousands of chips based on him saying that they would be in pretty good condition as they were only in play for 3 years. I was absolutely shocked by how shitty their condition was once they arrived. I have no idea how the $1s got so beat up. They look like they were bagged up using a lawnmower. I spent weeks cleaning thousands and thousands of these chips. Reselling these on eBay for 20 cents more than what you bought them for, AFTER cleaning them, is pretty much selling them for a loss after eBay and PayPal take their cut (unless you're happy with earning less than $1/hr for your cleaning services - in which case, call me). I wouldn't have purchased them had I known what kind of condition they'd be in. Also, these were obligatory purchases if you wanted to get your hands on the higher denoms in the pre sale. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that he brought these to the market, and that his pricing strategy was to sell them quickly, but I'm sick and tired of reading about "poor ol' Jim" and how all these evil flippers took advantage of him. Are you guys really this ignorant of how markets work? Jim is a business man, and he runs a good business with excellent customer service. But if you think he's a fellow chipper just trying to hook up all of his chipping buddies with his latest find, you're not very bright. If it weren't for investors (or as you call them, "flippers"), Jim would still be sitting on half of his chips.

I'm sitting here laughing because guys like me are being slut shamed for "flipping" these chips, meanwhile, I'm over here adding up my losses on this "investment". It's a fun hobby. Some of us buy way more chips than we need up front, unsure of which ones we are going to like or what we plan to keep. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But if you think guys like me are sitting here trying to buy dirty used casino chips for 59c each, then spend countless hours cleaning them, only to later resell them on eBay for 79c each just to turn a few dollars profit then, again, you're not very bright.

Stop bitching about the market prices. They are what they are. Jim doesn't dictate the market prices, he just takes his best guess at what he can sell his chips for, then sells them. All the slut shaming is getting old. It doesn't make you look noble, it makes you look ignorant.

If you guys travel to another country and forget to convert your cash into local currency, then find yourselves as the beneficiaries of the global market as your cash increases in value overnight due to some crazy unforseen event (think Mexican peso vs Trump election) are you going to pay it forward when it comes time to paying for your meals and hotels because you got your cash at a good price? I didn't think so. So stop being hypocrites please.

 

[SteveHNo96]

I don't particularly care for the Horseshoe Casino chips, but I can tell you that the Nevada Jack Skulls sell for about 30-45% higher than it would with a simple google search for the exact same chip. In fact, most of the specialty poker shops have them much much lower, with prices on eBay running to as much as $1 a chip!

 

[DJ Mack]

I don't think it's so much a matter of poor Jim as it is poor us next time he announces a sale. As you said he could buy a mansion now, so any incentive to generate quick cash on the next sale has pretty much evaporated other than his personal benevolence.

And incidentally 3 year old casino chips are 3 year old chips. I believe most casinos plan 5-7 years on a low denomination Paulson. The way I look at it any such chip less than 50% worn is coming out ahead. Frankly I was surprised at the number of sharp $5s I was able to scavenge. And there is still the secondary sets which sold at a very modest premium to the primaries.

 

[Psypher1000]

I don't think it's so much a matter of poor Jim as it is poor us next time he announces a sale. As you said he could buy a mansion now, so any incentive to generate quick cash on the next sale has pretty much evaporated other than his personal benevolence.

There's probably some truth in this, and I suspect many people realize/fear this, consciously or otherwise.

Jim withheld his chip counts until after the sale for a reason (one which couldn't possibly have been anything other than self serving).

This is SOP for him. Of course it's self-serving. It befuddles me to think that anyone would begrudge a business of this.

I bought thousands of chips based on him saying that they would be in pretty good condition as they were only in play for 3 years. I was absolutely shocked by how shitty their condition was once they arrived.

Hmmm...I find this curious. Compared to Aztars, Empress primaries, and many other casino racks that haven't been made generally available to the public, they *are* in good condition. Dirty as hell, mind you, but otherwise comparatively pretty darn good, and just slightly better than what I would have expected for 3yo $1's. Just a difference of opinion/expectation, I guess. FWIW, I don't take cleanliness into consideration when judging conditions of chips, nor do the commonly-accepted guidelines for assessing chip condition as put forth by the CC>CC (unless they're permanently stained, of course). Not sure if you're taking cleanliness into account when you're commenting on their condition or not.

I spent weeks cleaning thousands and thousands of these chips. Reselling these on eBay for 20 cents more than what you bought them for, AFTER cleaning them, is pretty much selling them for a loss after eBay and PayPal take their cut (unless you're happy with earning less than $1/hr for your cleaning services - in which case, call me).

Unless you're cleaning chips as a for-profit service, cleaning has generally been either a personal preference or a loss leader at best. Goodness knows I don't take this into account when selling cleaned chips. I cleaned them for me; the time & money spent is simply sunk cost for me as part of my hobby. You also indicate that your involvement with chips is a hobby. Many folks don't consider their time spent with a hobby into account when determining pricing/profits. You do. Just a difference of opinion there, but that difference of opinion may be part of the fuel for the anti-flipping flame. *shrug* eBay fees are indeed a bitch, though.

Are you guys really this ignorant of how markets work?

You're a very well-educated man. I assume you know or have observed enough about the folks on this forum to know this isn't the case. I agree that it's silly for someone to claim that Jim was "taken advantage of" financially, although he did specifically state he didn't want people to buy the chips w/the intent to flip. It's possible that's him just putting out some PR nonsense that some chippers want to hear. I tend to think that's not the case, but it's absolutely possible. My main wish is that any new chipper who wants to get their hands on their first set of Paulsons could do so at a moments notice through Jim and/or the PCF classifieds for at least the whatever the most recent TCR main sale price was. I was fortunate enough to be able to obtain chips at similar deals once upon a time and I try to pay that forward. I'd like others to continuously have that same opportunity. I acknowledge that's wishful thinking in la la land on my part, but if I had my 'druthers, that's how it'd be. When folks see sales on eBay for these chips at prices fairly well over what they were sold for here, that *may* mean they aren't available here at a lower price. Many folks will offer the same chips and on eBay simultaneously, selling at an increased price via eBay to account for the fees and such, but that's not the case in all situations.

Some of us buy way more chips than we need up front, unsure of which ones we are going to like or what we plan to keep. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But if you think guys like me are sitting here trying to buy dirty used casino chips for 59c each...only to later resell them on eBay...just to turn a few dollars profit then, again, you're not very bright.

Yeah, this is problematic, and I've found myself in this line of thinking sometimes - although much of it was much earlier in my chipping days when I was generally ignorant of how TCR sales worked. I agree that there are some very benign reasons for people to buy more chips than they ultimately want/need, and that often times the realized profit from the subsequent eBay sales is scant. It would be helpful if folks, at a minimum, took a beat to think about what they're seeing and consider what might have led to it before they break out the pitchforks and crossbows. Sometimes folks are assholes. Sometimes they just need educated on the how's and why's of it all. It's unappetizing, of course, to take the time and effort to do that when you're the one being accused of wrong-doing.

are you going to pay it forward when it comes time to paying for your meals and hotels because you got your cash at a good price? I didn't think so. So stop being hypocrites please.

I suppose reasonable minds may differ, but I'm not sure your example qualifies as an equivalent situation to warrant the "hypocrite" label. I think there's a significant qualitative difference between paying something forward to help further and foster a community you consider yourself a part of vs.doing so in the world at large (in which case such actions might be considered charitable or foolish).

 

[jiratic]

I think a lot of people are sensitive about 'flipping' (whatever you choose to define it as, because of its implication on the community. Most people view poker chip collecting as a hobby, and this is a good thing IMO because if it ever became a business then it would affect everyone's quality of poker life here. I think it's an added bonus that chips appreciate in value over time (a natural consequence of limited supply and high demand).

IMO poker chips aren't an investment, they are meant to be played with. I don't think it does the community good if a handful of whales are sitting on 10's of thousands of chips each as an investment. If it is an investment, we'll eventually end up with some bubble market where people use scripts/bots to purchase out the inventories of all the chips.

Now I'm not some sort of poker chip communist, but for common 1/5/25 chips that are the work horse of case chips, it seems in pretty poor spirit to be profiteering off them. What goes around, comes around and if everyone treats chips like an investment to be flipped you might find that you will in turn be pushed our of the market by botters/scripters.

 

[SteveHNo96]

Totally agree. I'm already seeing that trend with the Paulsons. The prices (some even sell for over $4/chip) are getting to the point where you would have to be hardcore just to get a used casino set, not to mention dropping money like crazy.

I sense the price of Paulsons and Chipcos are going to keep catapulting and we may see $6 a chip next year as more people collect them.

Barring some sort of financial miracle, I would probably stay with mid and pro level chips.

 

[Rhodeman77]

@RainmanTrail made a lot of strong valid points.

Jim dumped the Cleveland HS chips as fast as possible making as much money as he felt he could while doing it fast!

Todd is taking the complete opposite approach. Try to squeeze every dollar he can out of his set, even if it takes years to do so.

The problem I see with Todd's approach is that how many times in the last year have we seen high dollar ($4,000+) set come to market with no single buyer? Almost all of them, IF they sold they were broken up into much smaller sets.

Realistically how many people are left that are willing to drop $4k or more come New Year's Day on another tournament set? I'm guessing the number is smaller than Todd thinks.

Part of the reason the Cleveland HS secondary prices are so high and able to sell is that people were able to get MOST of what they wanted/needed for a set at much more reasonable prices. Spending $1500 on most of set then $500 on the secondary market a month later to fill it out is easier to justify than $4k (or more) to the average chip buyer.

Having a set already and wanting to add on to it a little at a time over time even at higher prices is possible to do. It's how we buy cars and houses after all. Get those low monthly payments! How many of us would own the car or house we have if we had to pay for the entire thing cash up front?

 

[BGinGA]

I sense the price of Paulsons and Chipcos are going to keep catapulting and we may see $6 a chip next year as more people collect them.

This made me lol. I think you may be unaware of actual market prices for casino chips.

Chipco chips will never reach Paulson prices; ceramics simply don't have the drawing power or demand. Unlikely that few (if any) will ever top $2/chip.

However, prices for some high-demand Paulson chips are already several times higher than your $6 next-year estimate, and have been for some time. I have complete sets (as do many others) where the average price per chip is well over that amount. The most expensive playable chips I own cost $95 each, and even the recent Horseshoe Cleveland $5000 and $25000 chips are currently selling for roughly $20 to $30 each.

IMO poker chips aren't an investment, they are meant to be played with.

I completely agree. All of my sets get played, no matter what condition, or how much they cost. I really don't own them, I'm just temporarily leasing them (hopefully for free) until they get passed on to the next collector. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[BPTDirector]

Anyone ever think of the fact that since Jim didn't have the Cincinnati chips that he dumped before he had to compete.

Jim is a very smart man - and he made plenty even on the pre sale - it was those buying up many more high denom chips than they would ever need because they have either done a data analysis like RMT did or have been around forever and know these facts based on experience that made the second market the speculator infected hole it is. Much like oil speculators who have come in for profit only at any cost, that's exactly what's happened to the chip market.

We are the one's who have now set these ridiculous prices, the market will never sustain what's going on, I'll be around when the bubble bursts, and I assure you it will.

 

[Joe Schwartz]

Given the current low supply and high demand, the market prices are completely reasonable. High-quality casino chips don't come along very often, and rarely with the high denoms offered from Horseshoe Cleveland and Cincinnati. Call it a bubble if you want, but it won't burst until demand drops dramatically, or supply increases dramatically.

 

[mummel]

Lol @ this bubble. Lol hard. Remember paying "market" price for your home in 2005 because it was going to be higher the next year? Yeah, that ended well.....

 

[upNdown]

i don't know much about big picture bubbles, but I can say for sure that pretty much across the board, chips are selling for less money now than they were when I first started following along here, 6 months ago.
Merry Christmas everybody!

 

[Rhodeman77]

Having 700k or more chips hit the market is going to effect prices on all chips in some fashion or another.

And if another casino was to rebrand or close in the next year we could really see prices drop.

While some older valuable sets may not see a drop in perceived value, the number of potential buyers with the available funds to buy may have shrunk at the least. Anything is only worth what someone is willing to pay when you are trying to sell.