eBay is filthy with Cleveland Horseshoes (1 Viewer)

[Tommy]

Good to see most have left the pitch forks in the shed and can have a discussion that doesn't need to hurl insults or harassment towards anyone.

 

[DJ Mack]

Good to see most have left the pitch forks in the shed and can have a discussion that doesn't need to hurl insults or harassment towards anyone.

It is Christmas after all. Check back tomorrow

 

[SteveHNo96]

This made me lol. I think you may be unaware of actual market prices for casino chips.

Chipco chips will never reach Paulson prices; ceramics simply don't have the drawing power or demand. Unlikely that few (if any) will ever top $2/chip.

However, prices for some high-demand Paulson chips are already several times higher than your $6 next-year estimate, and have been for some time. I have complete sets (as do many others) where the average price per chip is well over that amount. The most expensive playable chips I own cost $95 each, and even the recent Horseshoe Cleveland $5000 and $25000 chips are currently selling for roughly $20 to $30 each.

1. I only see what is on this board. To be honest, I don't go elsewhere except the occasional view on eBay and checking out other poker pages.

2. I was referring to all chips in a set, not just high value of one set (I saw a LPN go for $1250 for 500 chips) but this brings up an interesting point. I get it (to an extent). You want to play with the real McCoy, but I also am salient of another reality.

Milanos run ~35c a piece. Even high quality chips like Nevada Jacks run 65-70c with high-end places charging $1 or more.

I get the whole casino feel. I love Le Paulson Noir and I do like the Casino Aztar chips (I bought a few just so I knew what a Paulson felt like), and I know people have money to toss around (not me, but people). But are there really such large chip aficionados out there that they have to pay a 500% premium just to get a chip of that quality?

I get the whole "we have standards" argument. That's why we aren't all playing with Bicycle chips but at some point, I think the average person who really is just looking for a set that will impress the shit out of his friends at a poker night will have to say "holy shit, that is just too much" to a nice set of Paulsons or even Chipcos.

Forgive the two uses of a profanity here. I promise not to make it a second language.

 

[GoStumpy]

Totally agree. I'm already seeing that trend with the Paulsons. The prices (some even sell for over $4/chip) are getting to the point where you would have to be hardcore just to get a used casino set, not to mention dropping money like crazy.

I sense the price of Paulsons and Chipcos are going to keep catapulting and we may see $6 a chip next year as more people collect them.

Barring some sort of financial miracle, I would probably stay with mid and pro level chips.

I see Paulsons selling for the least in a long time, actually? I sold my Aztar $1's for about $1.10/chip and my Aztar $5's for about $.90/chip.... and they were in as good or better condition than Hirseshoes.

You can get Horseshoe $1's and $5's for 0.79/chip pretty easily...

Yes higher denom chips cost more but why always have, only difference is there are more of them now after the horseshoe sale

 

[liftapint]

But are there really such large chip aficionados out there that they have to pay a 500% premium just to get a chip of that quality?

Yes.

 

[SteveHNo96]

I see Paulsons selling for the least in a long time, actually? I sold my Aztar $1's for about $1.10/chip and my Aztar $5's for about $.90/chip.... and they were in as good or better condition than Hirseshoes.

You can get Horseshoe $1's and $5's for 0.79/chip pretty easily...

Yes higher denom chips cost more but why always have, only difference is there are more of them now after the horseshoe sale

I honestly would have to look for some Aztars next year after my tax refund comes in. to be fair, I am probably giving the Horseshoe chips a bad rap. I saw the rebrand and those chips look worse. The inlay is way too small IMO.

Aztars are actually nice chips as far as common ones sold here go.

If I was going to go that route, I probably would pass on any higher denom chips over $100 or in rare cases $500, just because I can't see a situation where a $25,000 chip is going to see the felt, unless the future Mr. President wants to invite me to play poker with him.

 

[David O]

Jim sold out of his 400k+ HS chips in a matter of weeks. He can now literally buy a mansion from the profits in most metropolitan areas. I don't think he was intentionally pricing his high demon chips as low as he did relative to their market values. It's not like he's been active on here following the market. For years, people have been asking if he's even still around. He never participates in the forums outside of his for sale threads. I think he priced all the chips at about 75 to 80% of what HE thought they were worth because he knew he'd be selling them for YEARS if he were to sell them at full market pricing. Once he realized that the higher denom chips were worth even more than he originally thought, he raised his prices on them accordingly.

Todd seems to be taking a different approach. He wants full market value (and in some cases, above market value IMO) for his chips and is probably OK with selling through them over the next few years to maximize profits (he's still trying to sell through the garden city chips on eBay to this day). I'll be shocked if he sells more than a few of his high denom sets on new years day. He got some great chips and wants to maximize his profits on them. Nothing wrong with that, but it's a different strategy than Jim took. Jim now gets to kick back and relax while he swims in our money, while Todd will probably be working quite a bit more to sell through his over time.

No one took advantage of Jim. He set the prices as he saw fit to unload them as fast as he could. The market will ALWAYS dictate the prices of chips. Find me any other business where the middleman recieves full retail prices for their truckloads of merchandise. He definitely tried to maximize his profits. He just didn't know quite what they would be worth at first.

A lot of people's collections here took a big hit in value when these chips hit the market. Jim withheld his chip counts until after the sale for a reason (one which couldn't possibly have been anything other than self serving). Would you liked to have known that there were almost as many 25k chips in circulation as there were 5k chips? I sure would have before I bought two racks of them off the secondary market. Also, some of us were rather disappointed with the condition of the used Horseshoe Cleveland chips after receiving them. I bought thousands of chips based on him saying that they would be in pretty good condition as they were only in play for 3 years. I was absolutely shocked by how shitty their condition was once they arrived. I have no idea how the $1s got so beat up. They look like they were bagged up using a lawnmower. I spent weeks cleaning thousands and thousands of these chips. Reselling these on eBay for 20 cents more than what you bought them for, AFTER cleaning them, is pretty much selling them for a loss after eBay and PayPal take their cut (unless you're happy with earning less than $1/hr for your cleaning services - in which case, call me). I wouldn't have purchased them had I known what kind of condition they'd be in. Also, these were obligatory purchases if you wanted to get your hands on the higher denoms in the pre sale. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy that he brought these to the market, and that his pricing strategy was to sell them quickly, but I'm sick and tired of reading about "poor ol' Jim" and how all these evil flippers took advantage of him. Are you guys really this ignorant of how markets work? Jim is a business man, and he runs a good business with excellent customer service. But if you think he's a fellow chipper just trying to hook up all of his chipping buddies with his latest find, you're not very bright. If it weren't for investors (or as you call them, "flippers"), Jim would still be sitting on half of his chips.

I'm sitting here laughing because guys like me are being slut shamed for "flipping" these chips, meanwhile, I'm over here adding up my losses on this "investment". It's a fun hobby. Some of us buy way more chips than we need up front, unsure of which ones we are going to like or what we plan to keep. Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose. But if you think guys like me are sitting here trying to buy dirty used casino chips for 59c each, then spend countless hours cleaning them, only to later resell them on eBay for 79c each just to turn a few dollars profit then, again, you're not very bright.

Stop bitching about the market prices. They are what they are. Jim doesn't dictate the market prices, he just takes his best guess at what he can sell his chips for, then sells them. All the slut shaming is getting old. It doesn't make you look noble, it makes you look ignorant.

If you guys travel to another country and forget to convert your cash into local currency, then find yourselves as the beneficiaries of the global market as your cash increases in value overnight due to some crazy unforeseen event (think Mexican peso vs Trump election) are you going to pay it forward when it comes time to paying for your meals and hotels because you got your cash at a good price? I didn't think so. So stop being hypocrites please.

You missed the whole point. It's not about poor Jim as you said, it is because some people over purchased to flip when there were many people trying to get their set at a reasonable price. Many could not partake because of this and it left a bad taste in many members mouths.If anyone knows about business they would have seen the prices go down with the amount that were sold and probably deserve the loss after trying to "corner the market" just to flip for profit.

I am not sure it is a hate thing, it is a mere difference of opinion which is what happens when you get a group of different backgrounds together.

Oh well good luck to everyone on their purchases and hope we see some more good sales, although we may have seen some of the last of the great sales due to what Dave said was "It's the greedy geese that killed the golden egg syndrome."

Merry Christmas to each and everyone of you on the Site!

 

[BGinGA]

I see Paulsons selling for the least in a long time, actually?

That's probably true, for used casino chips in common denominations on the less-in-demand RHC mold (like Indiana Aztar $1s and $5s).

But prices for higher denomination chips (less supply) and THC chips in general (more demand) remain high (if you can find somebody willing to sell them at all), as well as prices for mint/near-mint chips and top-tier casino sets.

 

[ovo]

This many new chips on the market definitely does affect sales of other chips. There were 10 Bahamia 500's for sale 150, 15 dollars a chip that went unsold. I think they would have sold if these horseshoe chips were not brought to market.

 

[David O]

This is great for collectors who are not selling. Definitely a buyers market. Since I am not really looking at selling I am good for now!!! If I need to buy I will wait out the inflated "flip" prices. Although I do not think I will buy another Horseshoe unless it comes from the original - "BINIONS" baby!!!

David

 

[beaver]

With chip prices these high, why isn't someone coming up with a more affordable way to produce clay chips? I understand that CPC is using decades old equipment and techniques, which is what keeps their costs so high, but there has to be a better way of producing these. Clearly there is a market for clay chips, I think anyone that could come in and offer comparable chips for less could still make a large profit.

 

[GoStumpy]

^^^ not getting it

These are collectible because of what they are, and they are worth what they are because they are collectible... just anybody making a chip fancy colours with $1000 on it doesn't make it worth $20/chip.

Chip prices are not that high'!! People need to start understanding this. THESE ARE CASH CHIPS, if your home cash game needs $500 chips because you have $10k on the table, then you can afford $4/chip.

Complaining about chip prices because you cannot build a tournament set with cash chips is just silly.

People thinking these 'flip prices' are inflated and will come down are fooling themselves, in time the chips find their homes and there becomes less and less available in the open market. The only 'inflated' prices are people asking now what they believe they will be worth in a few months.

 

[GoStumpy]

eBay is filthy with Cleveland chips because THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND just hit the market, and if even 5% of those get thrown on eBay, it will be 'flooded'.

That still means 95% are kept here on the forum by collectors and players alike.

 

[BGinGA]

Clearly there is a market for clay chips, I think anyone that could come in and offer comparable chips for less could still make a large profit.

Well, that's sorta what the Chinese are attempting to do by selling an injection-molded wanna-be 5c clay chip for 10c, although it's >30c by the time it gets here.

Margins and producing the real thing are a little trickier, however. The process is half art, half science, with all of the proprietary materials information locked up tighter than the Coca-Cola recipe.

 

[SteveHNo96]

^^^ not getting it

These are collectible because of what they are, and they are worth what they are because they are collectible... just anybody making a chip fancy colours with $1000 on it doesn't make it worth $20/chip.

Chip prices are not that high'!! People need to start understanding this. THESE ARE CASH CHIPS, if your home cash game needs $500 chips because you have $10k on the table, then you can afford $4/chip.

I would honestly think THAT would depend on how good a poker player you are. A consummate loser of said money is probably going to have to watch the budget a little bit, jussayin'.

Complaining about chip prices because you cannot build a tournament set with cash chips is just silly.

and yet the tournament sets are expensive too. It was largely considered a "door buster" to have a WSOP tourney set going for $1600 and the Cleveland Horseshoe going for $2 grand. I know, cost is relative, etc. etc. etc., but when you're referring to a poker night and 9 out of 10 people at the table don't know the difference between a "dice chip", a "china clay", a "ceramic" or a "Paulson", are you really doing the right thing? I get that you have standards with chips, but then again I don't see why people pay 6 figures for a Bentley.

People thinking these 'flip prices' are inflated and will come down are fooling themselves, in time the chips find their homes and there becomes less and less available in the open market. The only 'inflated' prices are people asking now what they believe they will be worth in a few months.

and more casinos will rebrand and dump in time. We will continue the cycle.

TL;DR: I do enjoy casino quality chips but not enough to pay that kind of moolah for it. $1, $1.25 makes sense, you're getting good chips but when you're seeing chips running $3-$4 a chip just for cash chips, you may want to consider something a *little* lower in price.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Something that I think a few people are either overlooking or unaware of is the sheer quantity of these horseshoe chips. Not all chip room offerings are the same, and all will affect the market differently. I believe Jim said his previous largest casino purchase was the Empress chips with a total chip count of ~250k chips or so. Between the two Horseshoe casinos, there will be about 3x that many Paulsons hitting the market all at the same time. This might be almost as many chips as all other Chip Room purchases combined over the years; or at least probably not far off that mark. This, from my limited experience, appears to be an unprecedented situation. If so, we don't really know yet where these prices will settle at long term. We know what people are willing to pay for high demand Paulsons, but we don't yet know what the long term demand will be for these chips. It is my opinion that the $1s will probably be very cheap for a long, long time. I don't see demand meeting supply enough to bring these over the $1 mark any time soon. Who knows what the future will bring with respect to future chip sales or the lack thereof, but I'd be willing to bet money that we're more likely to see the market settle below 80c per chip over the next year or two than we are to see it settle north of $1 ea. Unfortunately for Todd, this is going to make moving his chips that much more difficult. If he wanted to move these all quickly like Jim did, he would have needed to price them below the chip rooms prices, but he's not taking that approach obviously. I'm interested to see how long it takes him to sell through his stock from a market supply and demand perspective. I think it will be extremely informative. Plus, I just enjoy working with data. Hopefully, we'll find out how many chips he got from Cincinnati eventually. But if the 300-400k estimates are correct, I don't see used casino Paulson RHC mold chips rewarding investors any time soon. Anyone who is buying up used $1, $5, and $25 Grand Vics, Aztars, or Horseshoe chips on the secondary market as an investment in hopes of cashing it in once the market "recovers" is likely going to be disappointed in their decision.

 

[GoStumpy]

and yet the tournament sets are expensive too. It was largely considered a "door buster" to have a WSOP tourney set going for $1600 and the Cleveland Horseshoe going for $2 grand. I know, cost is relative, etc. etc. etc., but when you're referring to a poker night and 9 out of 10 people at the table don't know the difference between a "dice chip", a "china clay", a "ceramic" or a "Paulson", are you really doing the right thing? I get that you have standards with chips, but then again I don't see why people pay 6 figures for a Bentley.

Do we buy Paulsons for other people at my poker night? Heck no it's for me, and if they appreciate it too, then great!

Regarding the Tournament chips, $999 for the 900 chip two table Horseshoe set is right around the $1/chip mark for a tournament Paulson set.
The WSOP branded is very unique so obviously a bit higher, and it's just a hair over $2/chip for Paulson actual World Series of Poker chips... how is that not an AWESOME thing just to be ABLE to have them, let alone not pay huge money for it?

 

[SteveHNo96]

I will say this, Mr. Stumpy, at some point in time, I may do a Paulson set, like I said I like the Aztars and the Noirs and a few others. Right now it's just not going to happen due to financial constraints and a few other technicalities. (also, it might be tougher to move up to a $1/$2 game, which is pretty much a standard if you have Paulsons as I have seen fracs as excessively rare, hell, I doubt any casino do fracs anymore at all).

I may even eventually do a custom set. For right now I have two pretty-damn-good quality sets and I think that's where I'm going to stay until I make enough that I would be somewhere above the 15% tax bracket as far as my income is concerned.

I may get a third set with a tax refund, but it's a remote possibility. It's just nice to know the mid and pro quality are there.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Anyone ever think of the fact that since Jim didn't have the Cincinnati chips that he dumped before he had to compete.

Definitely agree with you here.

... it was those buying up many more high denom chips than they would ever need because they have either done a data analysis like RMT did or have been around forever and know these facts based on experience that made the second market the speculator infected hole it is. Much like oil speculators who have come in for profit only at any cost, that's exactly what's happened to the chip market.

I don't understand how you've come to this conclusion. You say this as though flippers determine the market prices, but that's simply not true. That's like saying surfers determine the sizes of waves. The chips are only worth what buyers are willing to pay for them. Flippers have almost zero say in what those prices are going to be.

Some people, like myself, initially wanted to put together a nice tourney set from the high denom chips. I even spent time mocking up a custom Pelican case for the set I thought I would be keeping. Once my chips arrived and I saw their condition (primaries), handled them (they wobble), and saw how much they were selling for on the secondary market (more than I thought they'd be going for) I asked myself "would you buy this set for THAT much money?" For me, the answer was 'no'. I decided I'd rather have another set of CPC customs instead. So, I sold some of my Horseshoes and put in my order with CPC. If that makes me a "flipper", then I'll proudly wear my scarlet letter, but at the end of the day I just like chips, and I'm damn picky about which ones I keep.

In the meantime, I'll be laboring through over 6,000 Horseshoe primaries as I clean them and deal with eBay nonsense, shipping package after package, taking/editing pictures, and answering emails for months on end just to try to get my money back. Sure, I'll profit a little bit on the few racks of 100s through 5k chips I was able to acquire (mostly off the secondary market at inflated prices), but it probably won't pay for all those snappers I bought at 2x-3x markups (which I was more than happy to pay).

 

[Rhodeman77]

I will say this, Mr. Stumpy, at some point in time, I may do a Paulson set, like I said I like the Aztars and the Noirs and a few others. Right now it's just not going to happen due to financial constraints and a few other technicalities. (also, it might be tougher to move up to a $1/$2 game, which is pretty much a standard if you have Paulsons as I have seen fracs as excessively rare, hell, I doubt any casino do fracs anymore at all).

I may even eventually do a custom set. For right now I have two pretty-damn-good quality sets and I think that's where I'm going to stay until I make enough that I would be somewhere above the 15% tax bracket as far as my income is concerned.

I may get a third set with a tax refund, but it's a remote possibility. It's just nice to know the mid and pro quality are there.

Unless you are playing .05/.10 blinds a single rack of quarters is all that is needed for a 1 table game. While they may be expensive compared to the $1 and $5 chips you will need as well to run the game, $200 to $300 overall is not life changing money to spend to be able to play with casino poker chips in a very low stakes game.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Sorry if I'm spamming this thread with long messages, but I'm probably at the top of the hit list of those criticizing people for flipping their Horseshoe chips on eBay. I felt as though I should at least offer my viewpoint. I'm OK if we see things differently, but I'm going to call you out if I feel like I'm being slandered.

 

[SteveHNo96]

Unless you are playing .05/.10 blinds a single rack of quarters is all that is needed for a 1 table game. While they may be expensive compared to the $1 and $5 chips you will need as well to run the game, $200 to $300 overall is not life changing money to spend to be able to play with casino poker chips in a very low stakes game.

Granted, but most of the chips I have seen run $1-$1.25 a chip, even running about 95c for the redbirds, we still have a price problem:

Prices are estimates, and not to be taken as exact, but are good for an example:
$1.50 x 100 (quarters, starting price for custom ASM's) = $150.00
$1 x 200 (singles) = $200
95c x 170 (redbirds) = $161.50
$1.15 x 30 (greenies) = $34.50

That's $546, and that's assuming a fairly reasonable price for custom quarters that have a similar style...

Again, these are being generous, I'm ignoring the idea of going with something really rare and awesome like the Noirs, I'm talking more like Aztar chips, which is a possibility.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Cleveland HS $1's are about .79 each everywhere and I'm sure cheaper if you shop around for a while. The $5's can be had for less for sure. I would bet if you email Jim at the Chiproom he still has some he will sell you at .59 each from the last sale.

But yes, I would assume $500 for ANY decent set of poker chips is a very reasonable price. If that is life changing money to someone then they realistically shouldn't be in the market for chips right now. That money probably has a better place to be used until they can get into a better spot financially.

Poker chips are not a life necessity by any means. So I assume most of us on here have the means to spend some disposable income on them.

Or get the Cincinnati $1's & $5's for .69 each on the 1'st.

 

[SteveHNo96]

Fair enough. I may look into that once I get a positive cash flow, you know as a final set, or with a tax refund.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Fair enough. I may look into that once I get a positive cash flow, you know as a final set, or with a tax refund.

Good luck! After playing with quality clay poker chips, it is so hard to go back to shitty chips. Unless of course the action is so good they would have to drag you away the game kicking and screaming!

 

[detroitdad]

Fair enough. I may look into that once I get a positive cash flow, you know as a final set, or with a tax refund.

Final set? I don't know what this means?

 

[GoStumpy]

Pretty funny actually, I joined in May of this year and there was no way I was spending $500+ on a set of chips, just not feasable...

Now I have probably $2500 worth of chips in my cabinet LOL

 

[SteveHNo96]

Final set? I don't know what this means?

3 sets is my limit for cash sets. If I am to break this, the 4th set would have to be star-spangled awesome on every level.

Since coming here, I have seen two that would qualify.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Sorry if I'm spamming this thread with long messages, but I'm probably at the top of the hit list of those criticizing people for flipping their Horseshoe chips on eBay. I felt as though I should at least offer my viewpoint. I'm OK if we see things differently, but I'm going to call you out if I feel like I'm being slandered.

Obviously I'm not one throwing stones, but I didn't think they were being thrown at you. The prices you are asking for the chips I assume are yours are not unreasonable for cleaned chips. The ones I was referring to are the small sets of cash game chips asking $1k for 500 chips of $1, $5, & $25's.

But my wife says I can be oblivious to gossip so unless someone tags you to call you out by name I wouldn't know it.

 

[Psypher1000]

3 sets is my limit for cash sets

I once thought something similar. 13 sets later...