Ever fold AA in a NLHE cash game pre-flop? (2 Viewers)

[Hornet]

So last week at the 2/5 NLHE game at my local casino, one of the players said he had played in a 25/50 NLHE game in FL and laid down AA pre-flop. The hand was straddled, and then He was playing with 30k behind and it was 5-bet to roughly $12000 with a couple of callers before he acted in the big blind. He was the short stack at the table and, given the action, was pretty confident that even if he shoved he was going to get several (5-7) callers. So he decided to fold in light of the fact that 30k is a big chunk of his bankroll and with 7 players seeing the flop he is not likely to win. I said that I could never fold AA pre-flop and the fact that he did showed that he never should have been playing in that game in the first place. Most people at the table agreed that they would have folded, so I was in the minority. Has anyone here ever folded AA pre-flop in a cash game?

 

[detroitdad]

No. However we play. 25/.50 100 max lol

 

[btbmason]

Never.

You pretty much nailed the reasoning already. If I am ever in a situation where I could envision folding AA preflop in a NLHE cash game, I would stand up and leave the game immediately.

 

[Fleming]

Has anyone here ever folded AA pre-flop in a cash game?

I haven't.

I said that I could never fold AA pre-flop and the fact that he did showed that he never should have been playing in that game in the first place.

This, exactly.

 

[Dustin_J]

AA has a ton of equity with multiple callers all in pre-flop. It seems that if one is afraid to take a spot this +EV, they should probably consider playing in smaller games.

 

[oONemoOo]

Folding AA preflop in cashgame is absolute heresy...
If I ever face the situation of not getting in while being a huuuuuge favorite, I'll stand up and... never play poker again

 

[Hornet]

AA has a ton of equity with multiple callers all in pre-flop. It seems that if one is afraid to take a spot this +EV, they should probably consider playing in smaller games.

That's exactly what I said to the table, and everyone looked at me like I was nuts. Basically, the reasoning was "how can you bet 30k with only a 25-30% of winning?"

 

[Mr Tree]

He's going to get five looose calls on a $30K bet? Where on earth is this game?

 

[Trihonda]

They told him "they would have folded too" because they wanted him to stay, continuing to play in their game.

 

[redwine]

Surely some of you have seen this..

Basically the situation you guys are describing

 

[Dustin_J]

They told him "they would have folded
Too" because they wanted him to stay, continuing to play in their game.

This!

 

[Trihonda]

And if he was seriously worried about getting seven callers, I would've put on my best "I've got pocket aces" face and jammity jammed in. Rubbing my hands together, while saying "oooo boy. Ooooo boy!" My guess is, that people had already pegged him for being a tight player, and his ship of $30,000 would probably make a few of the players pause. However, I wasn't there, obviously, so who knows.

 

[Toby]

I always fold AA pre-flop. Too easy. I like challenge

 

[redwine]

Even pros do it.

http://www.tommyangelo.com/the-worst-play-ever/

 

[Trihonda]

Surely some of you have seen this..

Basically the situation you guys are describing

This show's format made his fold legit, and nowhere near the same situation described in the op. If I recal, he was in the money (on a free roll). and almost guaranteed a huge win, and the chance to come back and win more.

There was no reason to risk anything. He had even acknowledged that he was going to be folding everything between now and the end of the session

 

[Hornet]

And if he was seriously worried about getting seven callers, I would've put on my best "I've got pocket aces" face and jammity jammed in. Rubbing my hands together, while saying "oooo boy. Ooooo boy!" My guess is, that people had already pegged him for being a tight player, and his ship of $30,000 would probably make a few of the players pause. However, I wasn't there, obviously, so who knows.

Just to be clear, I wasn't there either. He was just telling a story from when he played at the Hard Rock in FL in 25/50 game. This story and discussion happened at the local casino in Ohio. I was just surprised by how everyone in our 2/5 game seemed to agree with the guy.

 

[Trihonda]

I was just surprised by how everyone in our 2/5 game seemed to agree with the guy.

Im not. See my post above. Never educate a fish.

I was playing in a recent casino tourney, and an old crusty player got upset at a new player who made mistakes. This old crusty player on several occasions scoffed and made noises and grunts at this new players bad play (overbets and calling when obv behind). I started to be friendly with the new player, trying to make him feel more comfortable.

Later at another table, the old grumpy player chided me for encouraging that guys bad play. I smiled, and before I could say anything, another player spoke up and asked the grumpy player why he was trying to help the bad player keep his chips?

 

[DrStrange]

As others have already noted above, Hero made two huge mistakes. (Assuming we take the story at face value.)

The worst error was sitting in a game way over his depth. $30,000 was the short stack in a $25/$50 game. That is a 600bb stack and it is "short". Hero would have been well advised to avoid this game. And if he somehow thought he should take a shot (he shouldn't), then buy in for $5,000/100bb where Hero is a little less terrified.

The actual hand under discussion was also a mistake. Hero likely made the worst EV decision of his poker life by folding pocket aces preflop looking at a $210,000 / seven way flop. The actual EV is hard to know, but Hero's equity in such a pot was likely in the range of 600bb or +$30,000 expected value. Yes, the variance is huge. Hero is going to get felted ~70% of the time but Hero is putting in 14% of the money and has something like 30% pot equity.

The take away from this hand is not so much "never fold aces preflop in a cash game" but rather "don't sit in a game where $30,000 is a short stack unless your financial situation will withstand the variance/risk"

DrStrange

 

[courage]

Some people will believe anything at a poker table. :

 

[Rhodeman77]

I haven't ever folded them preflop but have a friend that did once.

He is a local semi pro, plays $5/10 & the occasional $10/25 in the few higher stakes private games around here. So he is used to buying in for $5k.

He is on vacation and ends up in an uncapped $10/25 game, he bought in short for $3k and over the course of the night ran it up to over $30k!!!!

A drunk guy buys in loses a few grand to my friend then reloads to cover my friend. Within a few hands my friend has AA and raised. Drunk guy shoves on him.

Now my friend knows he is a huge favorite to win, but the other guy still has ~18% equity. He doesn't know if he will run more than one board either. He decided $30k profit was a lot more money than ever hoped for and mucked. Racked up his chips and left. He realized too that he was playing over his head at that point.

If it was his first hand with his $3k stack he never folds. The real value of the money was too much of a risk.

Yes it was a -EV play but at the same time, how many times is a recreational player going to get into that spot to have the numbers come out right?

 

[Jambine]

no never
...... tourney yes

 

[dkersey]

I did once. It was a 1/2 home game with all solid and aggressive players. Pretty much everyone had bought in at 200. It was only 30 minutes into the evening, and we had another 5+ hours of play, when 2 people went all-in preflop. Yes, I could have tripled up, but I didn't want to go home after 30 minutes of play and I didn't want to play catch up all night with a rebuy. I figured there would be other opportunities later in the evening, and there were. I left that night 500 up. My AA would have held up...

 

[Trihonda]

As others have already noted above, Hero made two huge mistakes. (Assuming we take the story at face value.)

The worst error was sitting in a game way over his depth. $30,000 was the short stack in a $25/$50 game. That is a 600bb stack and it is "short". Hero would have been well advised to avoid this game. And if he somehow thought he should take a shot (he shouldn't), then buy in for $5,000/100bb where Hero is a little less terrified.

The actual hand under discussion was also a mistake. Hero likely made the worst EV decision of his poker life by folding pocket aces preflop looking at a $210,000 / seven way flop. The actual EV is hard to know, but Hero's equity in such a pot was likely in the range of 600bb or +$30,000 expected value. Yes, the variance is huge. Hero is going to get felted ~70% of the time but Hero is putting in 14% of the money and has something like 30% pot equity.

The take away from this hand is not so much "never fold aces preflop in a cash game" but rather "don't sit in a game where $30,000 is a short stack unless your financial situation will withstand the variance/risk"

DrStrange

Number 3 mistake, telling people he folded aces pre...

 

[Jambine]

Never.

You pretty much nailed the reasoning already. If I am ever in a situation where I could envision folding AA preflop in a NLHE cash game, I would stand up and leave the game immediately.

you would have to surrender your license to play cash poker

 

[moojersey]

It is just a huge mistake to ever fold Aces pre-flop. It is the #1 best starting hand in this game pre-flop and you are going to lay it down???? You shouldn't be playing this game then....

He should have jammed all and got every cent in the middle while he is sure he has the best hand. Granted multi way feels a little dicey but you have to trust the math at some point.

As others have pointed out Hero was worried he will get 5 loose calls from worse hands for 600BB / $30K??? I'm completely baffled as to why. I would probably struggle to keep my game face on and not jump out of my seat. But sounds like he was in way over his head.....of course if the story is even true. The overall situation described in the OP is pretty much what poker players dream about.

 

[Hornet]

It is just a huge mistake to ever fold Aces pre-flop. It is the #1 best starting hand in this game pre-flop and you are going to lay it down???? You shouldn't be playing this game then....

He should have jammed all and got every cent in the middle while he is sure he has the best hand. Granted multi way feels a little dicey but you have to trust the math at some point.

As others have pointed out Hero was worried he will get 5 loose calls from worse hands for 600BB / $30K??? I'm completely baffled as to why. I would probably struggle to keep my game face on and not jump out of my seat. But sounds like he was in way over his head.....of course if the story is even true. The overall situation described in the OP is pretty much what poker players dream about.

Who knows what is true unless you see it with your own eyes. Regardless, I thought it was an interesting conversation. Everybody in the 2-5 game understood it was a positive equity play to get it aipf, but people at the table continued with the point that they wouldn't want to lose 30k, which likely would have happened in the multi-way pot. The bottom line is that anyone who thinks that way should not be in that game in the first place. Either you have the bankroll to be able to buy in for 30k and play right (in which case you happily get it in there with AA) or you do not.

 

[Ronoh]

First, of course LOL at believing such a story from a random at a casino 2/5 table. The description of the table alone screams bullshit with a straddle, five raises and a couple 12K calls before it gets to him in the BB (and of course the feeling that even a 30K jam will get called by 5-7 players).

Could it be true? Sure. It's not, but yeah it could be

Also LOL at anyone who says they would never fold AA in a cash game. Regardless of their mathematical feelings about the situation most will never find themselves sitting at a table with more money than they could deal with losing.

I've seen a guy at 1/3 300max sitting on $14,000 so it's easy to realize UNCAPPED games certainly have the potential to get out of control. One may not be out of their league buying in to 5/10 for $2000 but once he starts winning it's difficult to figure out he's in over his head until he HAS to figure it out. At what point does the chance of losing your winnings outweigh the mathetatical probability of winning more? Three months salary? Six months? Two years? The amount of your entire mortgage? The number will be different for everyone but I guarantee everyone does have a number.

 

[Mr Tree]

Some people will believe anything at a poker table. :

I've been guilty of this. You once told me "Well played sir." And I didn't detect the sarcasm.

 

[bivey]

First, of course LOL at believing such a story from a random at a casino 2/5 table. The description of the table alone screams bullshit with a straddle, five raises and a couple 12K calls before it gets to him in the BB (and of course the feeling that even a 30K jam will get called by 5-7 players).

Could it be true? Sure. It's not, but yeah it could be

Also LOL at anyone who says they would never fold AA in a cash game. Regardless of their mathematical feelings about the situation most will never find themselves sitting at a table with more money than they could deal with losing.

I've seen a guy at 1/3 300max sitting on $14,000 so it's easy to realize UNCAPPED games certainly have the potential to get out of control. One may not be out of their league buying in to 5/10 for $2000 but once he starts winning it's difficult to figure out he's in over his head until he HAS to figure it out. At what point does the chance of losing your winnings outweigh the mathetatical probability of winning more? Three months salary? Six months? Two years? The amount of your entire mortgage? The number will be different for everyone but I guarantee everyone does have a number.

About perfect Finkster

 

[Rhodeman77]

Yea, @Ronoh more eloquently said what I was trying to say with my story.

It is definitely possible, and I hope I can get a big enough stack in a game to have to make that decision.