Extracting Value (1 Viewer)

[MikesDad]

I think I often don't get enough value from my big hands... here are two examples from my last session at the local casino.
The game is 1/3 NLHE

Hand 1 --
V1 to my immediate right has about 150. He's been trying to be the table bully.
Hero has been at the table less than an hour and has about 350. His image is probably OMC (being old has its perks) as I've played few hands and have shown even fewer cards. In an earlier orbit, Hero 3-bet V1 who folded to Hero's c-bet and immediately asked if hero had AA. Hero of coursed confirmed V1's read
V2 is two seats to Hero's left and has Hero covered.

After a couple of folds, V1 open-raises to 15. Hero looks down at AA and make it 40. V2 cold calls 40.
Back to V1 who shoves his remaining 135. What's Hero's best play to extract value?


Hand 2 vs V2 from hand 1 above a little later --
Hero now has about 450 and V2 still covers
An early raiser to $10, one caller and hero calls with 44 and V2 calls behind.
Flop -- 9 4 2 rainbow. PFR leads out for 20 (IIRC), hero and V2 call
Turn is a J -- PFR checks, Hero leads for 40 (perhaps too small?), V2 raises to 100, PFR folds.. back to Hero.
Pretty certain I'm ahead since V2 probably would have raised the flop with 99.
What's Hero's play for max value?

 

[jbutler]

Hand 1 is near neutral if V2 is any kind of hand reader imo. Either you flat or you jam he will read you as very strong and will only end up getting it all in if it's a total cooler. I suppose I would lean toward jamming in case he is a complete moron and puts you on AK and can't fold a pair. Close enough that I don't think either play is a big mistake however.

Hand 2 will change a bit depending on PFRer's stack size. I might raise the flop there in some cases. As played I probably raise turn to $180 and jam all rivers.

 

[MikesDad]

V2 was not a complete moron

In Hand 2, PFRs stack was small (~100) compared to Hero and V2

 

[DrStrange]

I think one hand per thread works better. . .

Hand one - I agree that a competent player is going to fold most of his range. Though cold calling a $40 bet borders on a mistake just about always, so maybe we shouldn't assume competence. I'd jam without some reason to try being tricky.

Hand two - ~$40 preflop. Preflop raiser goes $20, half pot. I approve of the slow play. This leads to three way action with $100 in the pot. Hero's turn bet is way too small - I'd try $75.

Ok, now villain raises to $100. I wouldn't rule out 99, really I have a hard time making sense of villain's range besides sets, J9 and a few semi bluffs.. Three betting with 99 isn't common in my experience (not that it is a bad play, but not standard tactics in my book) after hero catches up, there will be $300 in the pot and effective stacks of $320. I think an $80 raise is too small - it gives draws too good odds since Hero is stacking off on all rivers and villain will pay more than quarter pot with two pair or bottom set. I prefer a raise to $250 or $150 on top.

I will want Hero to revisit what we know about V2. Hero is potentially at risk here in hand two if V2 is competent. Hero's line - flat preflop, flat flop, bet/3-bet turn sure looks like a set to me (or maybe an over played over pair by Hero) If Hero looks like Old Man w/Coffee to the table, think about how this all looks to the villain.

So what could villain be raising with here? Is he trying to steal or was that bet for value? This could be a big theft attempt too and V2 isn't calling any raise. We essentially have no read on V2 and I think it matters. Hero might even be best off with a passive line - bet/call turn and check the river (planning a check raise) depending on the read.

DrStrange

 

[MikesDad]

V2 was a pretty typical ABC player. I'd call him competent, relatively tight preflop, somewhat aggressive postflop. In retrospect, 99 is not out of the question in hand 2

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Hand #1 - jam.
Hand #2 - call the raise, and check the river to let V2 try to bluff you off of your set. Then Jam.

 

[bergs]

Hand one - He's already got $40 in there. I probably consider a stop-and-go here with your image (with my image I'd just jam). Stop-and-go- would be to flat the reraise pre and hope he comes along, and then literally jam any flop. This is the rare spot where I think positional advantage is actually to go first rather than last.

Hand two - I'd raise another $125. Most 1/2 or 1/3 players will have a hard time folding to a min-raise here unless they were bluffing with absolute air (and three bet bluffs on the turn are super, super, super uncommon at those stakes). I see players make this move on a dry board with ace-face when the turn brings the face card and it's the high card on the board.

 

[Ben]

Hand 1: just shove.

Hand 2: villain has a fair amount of bluffs in his range here IMO - Hero's line looks weak with a small "inducing" bet on the turn, which worked. Then even if villain has a very big hand we are ahead of (like J9,) he will still be awfully hard-pressed to continue if faced with a bet/3-bet from OMC. I'd call the raise and check the river, hoping for another bluff (or pot-committing value bet from a 2-pair type hand.)

 

[kirchhausen]

Hand #1 - jam.
Hand #2 - call the raise, and check the river to let V2 try to bluff you off of your set. Then Jam.

This

 

[MikesDad]

Results

In hand 1 --
I decided to shove... I thought shoving or calling were both strong moves and hoped that V2 had a big pair he couldn't lay down.
V2 acts disgusted and folds. AA holds (and actually makes AAA22 which posted on the high hand board for all of 5 minutes).
V2 later said he would have called V1 all-in raise. I guess my OMC image hurt me here


In hand 2 --
I re-raised 100 more on top... V2 thought a few seconds and then folded. Later he said he had floated the flop with AJ and thought the J would scare me away.

I guess my questions are somewhat results oriented,based on V2's statements after the hands.

Thanks for the responses... I think calling V2's raise and then C/R the river in Hand 2 would be a better play. ... just the kind of input I was looking for

 

[Blaster]

In hand 1, Do you feel there is enough in the pot at this point, and would rather not see a flop with A/A against 2 opponents, or would you rather play against 2 ...
If the former, then no doubt shove .. otherwise Flat the 135 all-in, & shove post flop if V2 came along ....
This is a situation where I would do both "some of the time" ...., & there is no clear move 1 way or the other ...