Future of Paulson Fantasy Sets (5 Viewers)

[Blaster]

I know it's not just me, because I've read other people mention it here too, occasionally, but newer RHC mold chips wear gross. They turn into plastic. Not literally, of course, but they sure seem like that. Check out your Cleveland Horseshoe $5's, and tell me they really feel like the Paulson clay chips you love. I know it's not the mold, because mint RHC's feel perfectly Paulsony. And I don't think it's the clay, because the Cleveland THC ones felt great.
So I don't know if it's a combination of the unleaded clay and some strange quirk of the RHC mold, or if it's all in my head, but they feel like plastic to me.

I don't have any Clevelands, but I do have some older Chip's Casino $1's, that are worn smooth, like " M&M's", , & they feel and sound like a hard plastic shell .. Not sure if they were pre/post lead ( I think post), or if that has anything to do with anything, I have the same Casino $5's in mint, & they feel OK ...

 

[ejot]

Still writing up an introductory post for myself, so in the meantime I'll jump in here for my first.

My sense is that GPI's customers would consider it a nearly unthinkable breach of loyalty if they returned casino-grade products to a consumer market, and that the resistance to doing so is a central element of GPI corporate ethos that we are unlikely to shake apart.

I would guess dangling something like, say, a $1M or even $10M proposed order to them to do so, would be an absolutely laughable proposition to the execs.

Perhaps a more considered approach to establishing a fresh supply of Paulson-esque chips is to seek the expertise of research chemists and compression molding process engineers. Experts most likely from outside the gaming world who could bring highly relevant scientific and technical expertise to the particular problem we propose.

Let's go back to that million dollars. How far would that go towards developing, from scratch, a chip that handled quite closely to a good 'ol SCV/LCV Paulson? I wonder if ~500 people exist who were willing to invest, on average, $2k each into the effort, with the potential return of having initial access to buy some quota of chips (proportional to investment) at cost?

With any early success and some traction, perhaps a profitable entity could result. Or become the R&D arm of CPC. Probably a pipe dream, and certainly a gamble, but wonder I must.

And this concludes my crazy newbie ramblings.

 

[liftapint]

If I were to enlist scientists on this dream...I'd dream big, and hand them some scrown TRKs to replicate!

 

[Jambine]

If I were to enlist scientists on this dream...I'd dream big, and hand them some scrown TRKs to replicate!

don't let anyone mess with your dream !

 

[dennis63]

Let's go back to that million dollars. How far would that go towards developing, from scratch, a chip that handled quite closely to a good 'ol SCV/LCV Paulson? I wonder if ~500 people exist who were willing to invest, on average, $2k each into the effort, with the potential return of having initial access to buy some quota of chips (proportional to investment) at cost?

The Devil is in the details here. Our group represents a wide range of preferences when it comes to casino chips -- real casino sets, Classic customs, large sets of no-longer-made chips like T.R. King or BCC, playable sets of old (pre-GPI) Paulson chips, relabeled Paulsons, home Paulson chips, chips with inlays, chips with hot stamps, (and on and on). Everyone has their favorite.

Getting 500 people to agree on anything here would be quite a victory. Getting that number to actually buy in would be even tougher.

Even if you succeeded by reverse-engineering GPI's chips and made something close enough to be indistinguishable from one of their "casino-only" chip lines, they'd either sue you or just buy the company and scrap it.

Somebody here might remember... Was this the fate of the Blue Chip Company or T.R. King? (or both.)

 

[Hobbyphilic]

@ejot I doubt the R&D would cost too much, I mean it's clay/mineral and polymer. Tooling up might be costly, but with CNC and other technologies, hopefully not as expensive as in the past. You could also make unique chips with unique molds, texture, colors and materials - maybe size even.

The point of my posts was that it would likely NOT cost GPI millions. They are uniquely positioned to already have the tooling and expertise in place to get 8%+YOY on investment with on-demand manufacturing from a satellite company. Any third party were to try this it would be more like 4%-YOY for the first few years. All this depending on GPI being able to play the politics with a satellite company. Politics which are obviously more important financially than consumer production runs.

Additionally, casinos are uniquely positioned to monopolize the Paulson consumer market, so why not cash in? Even if it is for ONLY $250,000/year? What else in their gift shops generate that kind of revenue? People that buy T-shirts would be a different market segment than people buying $600 chip sets so they are just diversifying their market.

 

[justsomedude]

...so why not cash in?

Off the top of my head, I can think of one, two, three reasons.

 

[Hobbyphilic]

Off the top of my head, I can think of one, two, three reasons.

I think you get some smart people together they could over come all those in less than a five minute phone call. And what kind of counterfeiter buys chips for $2/ea when they can get casino mold chips off the floor for $1/ea?

While I agree it is extremely unlikely, I still stand by the idea that if large casinos and GPI decided to do it, they COULD do it and would increase revenue with extremely low risk. I get it, they are under regulatory body microscopes, they worry about protecting integrity and security. You get a smart MBA on the case they will crack it pretty quickly, legally, profitably and in a very secure manner. Then move on to the next money maker and not look back.

 

[MD Mike]

I think you get some smart people together they could over come all those in less than a five minute phone call. And what kind of counterfeiter buys chips for $2/ea when they can get casino mold chips off the floor for $1/ea?

While I agree it is extremely unlikely, I still stand by the idea that if large casinos and GPI decided to do it, they COULD do it and would increase revenue with extremely low risk. I get it, they are under regulatory body microscopes, they worry about protecting integrity and security. You get a smart MBA on the case they will crack it pretty quickly, legally, profitably and in a very secure manner. Then move on to the next money maker and not look back.

Don't give up @Hobbyphilic !

I keep getting hope whenever I read your positive replies on this topic.

I feel like we just need one good chemist and one good machinist to get started...

 

[mummel]

CPC would have reverse engineered Paulsons by now if they could. I think it's a difficult process to replicate.

 

[BGinGA]

You have that exactly backwards. The molds, materials, and processes used by CPC pre-date those in use by Paulson by several decades.

It was Paulson that came up with a new way to do it, back in 1970-ish..... when they moved chip production in-house and out of Burt Co. hands.

 

[whoop84]

It seems like with all this new technology, that someone hasn't come up with a way to 3D print chips. I mean if they can do a house they should be able to make some chips.

 

[mummel]

3D printing chips would be awesome haha

 

[BGinGA]

It's been done. Very expensive, and material quality is lacking.

 

[mummel]

It's been done. Very expensive, and material quality is lacking.

What did the material feel like? More plasticky?

 

[Mental Nomad]

Obviously it is multifactorial as MBAs are VERY interested in 3% growth, even half a percent

We're also very sensitive to risk, including reputational risk.

(remember GPIC's trailing 12 mo revenue is 82.49MM across all industries)

Yes. Why risk that?

 

[mummel]

This thread has been very informative and made me realize that there is basically no chance that GPI enters the consumer market again.

 

[MD Mike]

"Basically no chance" isn't the same as "no chance".... soooo

 

[Chris La Mantia]

Everybody in favor of RHC gets defenestrated.

Now there's a word you don't see properly used in a sentence often.

 

[pltrgyst]

Now there's a word you don't see properly used in a sentence often.

And then generally only by people dumb enough to have taken two or more years of Latin.

{guilty}

 

[upNdown]

And then generally only by people dumb enough to have taken two or more years of Latin.

{guilty}

Ha!
{Three}

 

[toad94]

Even if you succeeded by reverse-engineering GPI's chips and made something close enough to be indistinguishable from one of their "casino-only" chip lines, they'd either sue you or just buy the company and scrap it.

Somebody here might remember... Was this the fate of the Blue Chip Company or T.R. King? (or both.)

BCC survived (and won) the lawsuit, but, yes, Paulson sued GPI. Mind you, this was Paul Endy Jr's son (forgot his name, he was the President of Paulson though) suing his uncle, Charlie Endy of BCC. Charlie and Mike Endy had to prove that their new formula and process was sufficiently different from Paulson's to win the case.

Years later BCC offered their company for $900,000. It stayed on the market for a year or so (if memory serves) before GPI bought it, took the dyes and molds, and shut down the Las Vegas BCC location.

The important detail here is that even knowing Charlie and Mike came up with a new formula and process to make their chips so they would not infringe on Paulson's exact practices (which was part of the deal when Charlie left Paulson), Paulson still sued them. Any company introducing a new "clay" chip would need to record every little detail of how they developed their new chip formula and process and then still hire a good lawyer (or make them in China??).

 

[MD Mike]

What if I starting making my own chips? Got a machinist to make a mold and then developed my own formula and process? Would I still get sued if my yearly production was only a few thousand chips?

 

[justsomedude]

What if I starting making my own chips? Got a machinist to make a mold and then developed my own formula and process? Would I still get sued if my yearly production was only a few thousand chips?

As with any venture where you knowingly plan to enter a market to compete with well established players who have millions of dollars of business from existing clients... hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Translation... make sure you have a good lawyer.

 

[MD Mike]

As with any venture where you knowingly plan to enter a market to compete with well established players who have millions of dollars of business from existing clients... hope for the best, plan for the worst.

Translation... make sure you have a good lawyer.

Ugh, this sounds expensive.

 

[MD Mike]

Anyone want to be my lawyer? I will pay you in low quality compression molded chips that look like they were made in a county bake off.

 

[Jambine]

The only "realistic" way to get new and unique Paulson chips is to open a card room and buy them through normal channels.

Get ready to go through the ringer to obtain a gaming license, and spend all your money, borrow more and spend that, find some investors and spend all their money. Get the initial order in with Paulson and then go out of business.

Now you can sell off the inventory. You will probably need to get around $12 per chip to break even


Edit: that was supposed to be a "tounge-in-cheek" post but it's actually pretty close to reality

 

[mummel]

The only "realistic" way to get new and unique Paulson chips is to open a card room and buy them through normal channels.

Get ready to go through the ringer to obtain a gaming license, and spend all your money, borrow more and spend that, find some investors and spend all their money. Get the initial order in with Paulson and then go out of business.

Now you can sell off the inventory. You will probably need to get around $12 per chip to break even


Edit: that was supposed to be a "tounge-in-cheek" post but it's actually pretty close to reality

What state is the easiest to setup a card room in?

Also, whats about the online companies like Pokerstars using their licenses to sell chips to customers?

 

[Jambine]

What state is the easiest to setup a card room in?

Also, whats about the online companies like Pokerstars using their licenses to sell chips to customers?

Not sure about the easiest, but Colorado is certainly one of the hardest. I worked for a casino here that was bought-out by a company running casinos In several states (including Nevada). Took them almost 2 years to get licensed

 

[dennis63]

If all or most of GPI'S casino customers moved to ceramic chips or some new material, they might sell off the BCC portion of their business and you might be able to make your own clay chips.

If that. happened, almost everyone here would clamor for what the casinos have. After all, we only want what we can't have, and if we ever get it, we don't want it anymore. Until we sell it. Then we wish we never sold.