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Have Chinese cards mold replica sets gone too far? (3 Viewers)

Sometimes I get really proud of PCF for our ability to dig up the dead horse and beat the shit out of it all over again.

After 35 pages of various points made, I still think I largely stick with my initial take. Don't steal other's art and don't replicate live casino chips. Making tributes of chips that are out there in quantity is pretty meh, but I guess I get it. Tributes of chips/sets that simply don't exist is the best option short of customs. Also not a fan of replicating live molds.
 
aggie said:
"Tribute"
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Homage?

Donkey KGB's on the DHR mold, FTW!

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BGinGA said:
And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set. Less potential buyers means less demand. And less demand for a set equates to a lower price.
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This is the part of the argument I completely disagree with. The buyer of the $300 knock off set was not in the market in the first place for the $3K-$10+K set of originals. So demand for the originals has not been negatively affected one bit by their purchase. BUT, many of these knock off buyers are relatively new chippers who may have now had their interests peaked for the original set, and may one day move up in the hobby and aspire to obtain the originals. Several of us have posted that this is our own exact experience. Furthermore, other chippers who can afford the originals may now be exposed to a set that they didn't even know existed, or had not thought about acquiring before, potentially increasing demand.

I realize this is all conjecture on both our parts. I'd love to see hard data to confirm or refute either of our positions. But I doubt that it exists.
 
TX_Golf_N_Poker said:
This is the part of the argument I completely disagree with. The buyer of the $300 knock off set was not in the market in the first place for the $3K-$10+K set of originals. So demand for the originals has not been negatively affected one bit by their purchase.

I realize this is all conjecture on both our parts. I'd love to see hard data to confirm or refute either of our positions.
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All I can tell you is that some people have owned high-priced originals, sold them, and bought knock-offs. Others have bought direct copies not because of their low price, but because if their availability. And yeah, their demand for the originals no longer exists.

It's not conjecture, it's fact.
 
I’m not entirely sure how I feel but I can tell you that scrolling through the homegame thread or whatever and seeing all these once fairly rare sets being displayed at virtually everyone’s tables, does something with my appreciation for the real ones. Even if they didn’t, I don’t zoom in on photos to see which ones are cards mold vs the real deal. I understand the appeal, but I think the inflation of the fake sets do lessen the value (not just the dollar value) of the originals.
 
Personally the knock off copies cheapen the originals for me and would make me less inclined to buy the original chip, be it a limited chip or NAGB chip.

The copies make the original less special (for me anyways).
 
grantc54 said:
Personally the knock off copies cheapen the originals for me and would make me less inclined to buy the original chip, be it a limited chip or NAGB chip.
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Has this happened with any chips you actually own? I've seen Gulfport card molds and felt absolutely nothing towards them in relation to my set.
 
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Rieguy said:
Has this happened with any chips you actually own? I've seen Gulfport card molds and felt absolutely nothing towards them in relation to my set.
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Let’s see

1. Hard to get if not impossible, because they are your customs. Check the “hard to get box”
2. CPC is expensive. So if I want some if your chips, I can’t afford to get CPC to make them. Check the “originals are too expensive” box
3. You won’t give me permission. Check the “somebody else’s idea, who cares” box

Sound like customs fit the cards mold logic perfectly. They sound like an ideal way to get custom chips you can’t otherwise get for the same great reasons you want them.
 
Moxie Mike said:
Theft of what from whom? The chips at Aria aren't a consumer product. You can harvest a set from there if you want to go to the trouble and considerable expense, but what's the harm having replicas made if they're for personal use?



I think that a fair amount of responsibility falls on the consumer, doesn't it? If something is being advertised as cheaper than it should be, that should raise red flags. If a person doesn't educate themselves and gets ripped off as a result, that's at least partially on them.

An quick example can be found on eBay. Search 'left handed guitar' and you'll find all sorts of Chinese guitars that mimic the designs of famous guitars from Fender, Gibson, etc. In fact, they're colloquially known as 'Chibsons'.

So if a person buys a guitar for $300 thinking they just got a great deal on a $4000 product, it may sound cold but I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

This is different of course from being lied to - if a product is completely misrepresented that's a different argument.
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This right here!!!!
 
BGinGA said:
I think it is. Even though the originals and the direct copies are different products, owning either one can 'scratch the same itch'.

And it's not just a difference in cost, but also a difference in availability.
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So I think what you're getting at is a philosophical question, Dave.

Are the knock-offs being viewed as a placeholder until the real thing becomes available? Or are they a permanent, suitable alternative to the real thing?

If the knock-offs are a placeholder, then there's no argument to be made that they affect demand for genuine originals. But if they're a viable alternative, then yes - that's a problem.

My view is this: The CMs are entry level regardless of what's printed on them - but they're arguably the best entry level product on the market. They're not the highest quality and the shipping/production time leaves a little to be desired, but they're completely customizable up to and including sets that nowadays are prohibitively expensive if you can even find them.

Quicksilver-75 said:
Really? I think your example is a little ridiculous. We aren't talking about new or used here.
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Fair point. I was thinking more in terms of resale value but you're probably right on this one.

Quicksilver-75 said:
Actively seeking a blatant ripoff is a detrement and only serves to hurt the brand you claim to admire.
And making more and more cheap knockoffs readily available only exacerbates that.
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Does a replica Van Gogh hurt the market for an original?
 
Moxie Mike said:
No one wants to see the fakes passed off as originals. But that's not what's happening here.

In general, people will purchase the best product they can afford. If a person perceived a Cadillac to be of higher value than a Chevrolet - and they can afford a Cadillac, that's probably what they'll buy.

Following that example, if a person is comparing the cost of a new Chevrolet vs a 4 year old Cadillac, they may very well choose the Cadillac.

This kind of parallels what's going on here. The CMs are probably the best value at .40/chip. So it's understandable why they're popular. I don't think the 'replica' part of the conversation is even relevant. If someone came out with some cool designs that people liked similar to how BR PRO did with the DDLM and other designs, you wouldn't think anything of it.

But when you add the fact that the chips are 100% customizable and/or you can replicate the design of your favorite casino for the same $, that only increases their value in the marketplace.

The addition of a TH&C mold is just the next evolution in the market. The demand is obviously there.
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This.

I bought a Mirage cash set from the group buy, because a full set either doesn't exist, or exponentially too expensive (More so it doesn't exist in a playable quantity). I will do the same if a tourney set gets made. It pays tribute to the sets, that either don't exist or are too expensive. It is quite obvious that these chips are not being sold as exact casino chips.
 
Moxie Mike said:
Does a replica Van Gogh hurt the market for an original?
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Not a very relevant comparison imo. Don’t know about the states but at one point over here just about every woman was sporting one of these below. I don’t think all of them actually ponied up the $2000+ for an original when identical knock-offs were readily available.

6FBE22B2-D586-4B4E-820F-18C8D653271A.png
 
TomC727 said:
because a full set either doesn't exist, or exponentially too expensive
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Then you don’t get to have them. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m not saying this from a place of gatekeeping. I have exactly one expensive set and it’s less expensive than a lot of the Tigers.
I just don’t believe “I want” is a good enough reason to justify violating trademark/copyright laws and muddying up a hobby that was doing fine up until a couple of years ago when everybody decided they got to have everything they want.
 
BGinGA said:
I get your point (and fully expected the counter), but there's still plenty of overlap. People who would save up to get a set of PCAs, Aztars, fill-in-the-blank-chips, if it were their only option. Being able to buy a cheap direct copy essentially removes them from the market for originals, lessening the demand.
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At the current prices, I don’t believe there are a lot of people that would save up to buy a PCA/Aztar/Vineyard set but settled for a Chinese ceramic chip.

I also don’t think people buying the Chinese ceramic chips were ever going to spend the exorbitant amount of money they the equivalent Paulson set would take.

I think there are people (myself included) who bought a replica set of something like Vineyards from Tina because I love the chips and want a set and would buy one but I can’t find the goddamn things.

There are a lot of sets that are just gone for circulation at this point - Olivia’s, Vineyards, Crystal Park sets with higher denominations, Ritz to name a few. You must don’t see them anymore - they aren’t moving and ceramic knockoffs are as close as you’re reasonably going to get.
 
upNdown said:
Then you don’t get to have them. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m not saying this from a place of gatekeeping. I have exactly one expensive set and it’s less expensive than a lot of the Tigers.
I just don’t believe “I want” is a good enough reason to justify violating trademark/copyright laws and muddying up a hobby that was doing fine up until a couple of years ago when everybody decided they got to have everything they want.
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Based on other threads lamenting chip scarcity and costs, I wouldn’t unilaterally categorize the chipping hobby as “doing fine”.

What you’re seeing is simple economics and market forces with a replacement product. We can argue about the trademark/copyright laws (I’m probably in agreement with you there) but from the hobby/community perspective, gimme a break. Hard to say this is a community with the amount of flipping and sales manipulation that takes place. It’s a marketplace and there is an easily attainable and affordable replacement product available to substitute for something very difficult to source and very expensive to procure. What did you think was going to happen?
 
upNdown said:
Then you don’t get to have them. That’s all I’m saying.
I’m not saying this from a place of gatekeeping. I have exactly one expensive set and it’s less expensive than a lot of the Tigers.
I just don’t believe “I want” is a good enough reason to justify violating trademark/copyright laws and muddying up a hobby that was doing fine up until a couple of years ago when everybody decided they got to have everything they want.
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Cards mold are the participation trophies of chips
 
BGinGA said:
Tribute sets create interest, sure....but direct copies aren't tributes to the original chips. They are just rip-off copies, usually of somebody's intellectual property.

And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set. Less potential buyers means less demand. And less demand for a set equates to a lower price.
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Your thoughts would be true if the original chips were a production item that for sale to the public through a retail merchant. They arent. They were never meant to be public release. They were a private currency for use by a casino, which has been discontinued. Any "collector value" of the original chips is irrelevant, and creating copies of a dead currency can't hurt the value of something you were never meant to own.
 
bergs said:
Hard to say this is a community with the amount of flipping and sales manipulation that takes place. It’s a marketplace and there is an easily attainable and affordable replacement product available to substitute for something very difficult to source and very expensive to procure. What did you think was going to happen?
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Well I don’t have to like it.
 
upNdown said:
Well I don’t have to like it.
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No, you don’t, but your incessant whining about it is bordering on hilarious.

It’s like people think this is a community and we should all band together and look out for one another and protect the hobby.

Then someone buys chips from Chiproom at $1.50 each….

A week later, the put the chips up for sale at $5.50 each and claim that their sister’s husband’s brother has an adorable poodle they was seriously injured by the frozen falling urination cake inadverently ejected from a passing JetBlue Airbus 220, and they didn’t want to sell this set but they’re going to charge a premium to help the dog.

And if anyone complains, hey, it’s a capitalist all you can eat get whatever you can free market system.

You either think it’s a hobbyist community or think it’s a marketplace. It can’t be both.
 

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