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How are poker winnings from home games technically supposed to be handled in the US when it comes to taxes?
If potentially taxable seems like a bad idea to have a paper trail. When I started doing online weekly during covid the constant in and out to my electronic account after one year added to a significant amount. Enough to make me reconsider doing it regularily.
I keep enough cash on hand to cover the table, so I usually just accept the Venmo and take cash out of my pocket to go into the bank. Although minimizing transfers by waiting until the end would be nice, I certainly don't trust most players enough for that. Except this guy:
I would love to go cashless, but I worry about taxation and/or getting booted from venmo if I have 1K+ flying in and out of my account every week. Anyone experience any problems like this?
pretty solid procedure, but when I'm banker , I'm pretty careful, never had a problem, unless someone buys from chips on the table and some weird shit goes down, but we stopped that a long time ago, to keep things easy. The only way I can screw up my system is by mixing my money with the purse, but even that don't matter since I will make good on any money owed anyway.
I guess it once again depends on your stakes. I maybe wouldn’t use Venmo if thousands were going in and out often, but for a $20 game I doubt they care enough to even look into my account. I use Venmo very frequently for non-poker transactions, most likely enough so that having a bunch of transactions on a single night isn’t suspect. Not that it would be anyway, as we could easily be out at a bar or restaurant as a large group and everyone is paying me. When Venmo was initially created, the whole point was for friends to be able to send small amounts back and forth for meals, tips, bills, etc. I don’t worry about taxes because all the transactions are friends and family.
one of the most rewarding moments for me is when at the end of a game session I go to the cashier and exchange the chips for cash.
I remember having made this reflection a few years ago, after a couple of hours of blackjack in a casino in Bucharest. While I was having dinner (at the casino's expense) I took a picture of the bundle of 100 lei banknotes I received in exchange for the chips ... it was a good feeling.
An email "you received money" from paypal or venmo does not give the same feeling at all.
I would love to go cashless, but I worry about taxation and/or getting booted from venmo if I have 1K+ flying in and out of my account every week. Anyone experience any problems like this?
one of the most rewarding moments for me is when at the end of a game session I go to the cashier and exchange the chips for cash.
I remember having made this reflection a few years ago, after a couple of hours of blackjack in a casino in Bucharest. While I was having dinner (at the casino's expense) I took a picture of the bundle of 100 lei banknotes I received in exchange for the chips ... it was a good feeling.
An email "you received money" from paypal or venmo does not give the same feeling at all.
This reminds me of a time - a long time ago. Back when "direct deposit" first became a thing.
A lot of old-timers liked going to the bank. You talked to a human teller at the window. It was most likely a woman, and she probably knew you. Mine was there when I first opened an account, somewhere around 10 or 12 years of age, depositing grandma's birthday money. Later she knew when I got my first paycheck job. She knew when I bought my first car.
There was a certain amount of security there. Nobody was going to find my bank numbers and hack my account - she would know it wasn't me. This wasn't some small town bank either. This was Detroit. Few cities were bigger.
Moreover, there was a certain good feeling. That envelope full of cash. Living paycheck to paycheck it felt good. When you could leave a little in the saving account (all tracked in pen and paper in a little ledger the bank gave you) you would see the numbers go up, page after page. It was like Box Scores for your wealth... but it also came with an envelope full of cash.
Then Direct Deposit came in. Younger kids loved it, while old-timers (like myself) still wanted to talk to Carol (or whatever your particular teller's name was), and refused to sign up. Big bonus - the lines at the bank got shorter and shorter.
Eventually, my workplace no longer allowed direct deposit to be optional. I was forced into the modern world.
I'm not going to lie - it is more convenient. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that this preceded the Great Recession. People were growing up without a physical reminder of their wealth status. No envelope full of cash that got thinner with every purchase. No "Box Score" of wealth as you only had a single number that would change and you could forget about how it was going up or down.
I'm not saying I would go back to paper paychecks. As new, younger players want to deal in Venmo, I will also adapt - but not gladly. My poker bankroll is partially measured by how much paper currency I still have access to without hitting the bank (I almost never used ATM's as it meant not talking to the teller).
The younger generation will never know the pleasure of that envelope, the security of face-to-face interactions, the smell of the bank (they do not smell the same today), the velvet ropes, or shaking the copper out of your envelope and buying 1-4 gumballs out of the penny gumball machine.
Cashing your check at the bank was like cashing a winner at the track. The moment of when they hand over the money is the great feeling that you love. The moment of the reconciliation after a week of work is what felt good. It was way better than just knowing it was there. Cash less games are one of the stupider things I’ve ever seen. Tips and bribes shoujd also be cash only. You wanna pay you check at a restaurant with a card, fine, but the tip should be cash. Poker ? No cash, No chips.
If I were to host a cashless only game, I would do it as @Goldfish does (I believe). Everybody gets a bag of chips worth X, where X is several bullets. Everybody gets the same amount, so everybody owes the same at the beginning of the night. Cash in for X, cash out for X+/- stack. Seems like it would cut down on so many transfers.
Interesting how attached many people seem to be to actual cash.
In Norway cash mostly old people 70+ will use cash on a regular basis (many old people also don't use cash by the way), as society is turning more and more cashless and have been doing that for years already.
I am one of the wierdos who still always has some cash for poker. In actual poker clubs with unknown people I absolutely prefer cash for chips and chips for cash, no doubt. No credit or payment after the fact and stuff like this. However, in a friendly game with more or less close friends where you trust everyone and the stakes are reasonably small, cashless is definitely the way to go. I don't mind having a few 500 kr ($50) banknotes lying around, but if I ended up with many smaller notes and even coins after a game it would just feel super annoying. I probably pay with cash in a store once a year or less. Probably less now that I think about it. Add the fact that someone (the banker) would need to go to an actual bank to get a bunch or small coins and bills to fill up the poker bank to be able to make change.. just such a waste of time.
Friendly social game with low stakes = cashless
Higher stakes with unknowns in a casino/poker club = cash
@Poker Zombie I think your sentiment can be shared by many, including myself. Despite being younger, there are still many aspects of life that used to take place in person that no longer do. I remember opening my first checking account and having a checkbook and ledger, even if only for a few years. I remember as a kid going with my mom to sign up for activities and classes in person. I’m a very outgoing person and love face-to-face interaction.
I definitely think, in a perfect world, that we would be able to move away from all of the digital interactions and transactions we participate in. However, because of the very fast paced and busy life many of us find ourselves in, these quick, convenient digital transactions are something of a necessity. I carry so many things in my pockets that the convenience of digital transactions and not having to worry about coins and small bills is a relief. Instead of spending time driving to banks and sitting in lines I can spend the time with my family or playing poker with the group.
I totally get peoples’ attachment to cash who grew up with it. I don’t think there is a right or wrong here, just preference. It seems silly to hate on a cashless game though - just take the right precautions and there is no reason to worry about taxes or a paper trail. If I was hosting a cash game I would just have to take different precautions - only inviting people I trust, not advertising I have a large amount of cash at my house, etc.
If I were to host a cashless only game, I would do it as @Goldfish does (I believe). Everybody gets a bag of chips worth X, where X is several bullets. Everybody gets the same amount, so everybody owes the same at the beginning of the night. Cash in for X, cash out for X+/- stack. Seems like it would cut down on so many transfers.
The bag system significantly cuts down on the amount of buy ins and makes the rebuys uniform thereby reducing significantly the possibility of a dispute or the bank being off at the end of the night. If you are playing in the game and people are constantly rebuying or topping off, it is inevitable that eventually the bank is going to be off or there is going to be a dispute about the amount of rebuys (not to mention after every hand you will be dealing with requests for chips - which is a pain in the ass). Not only do I use the bag system, but for rebuys I introduce a new hi denomination chip (that was not in the bag). That way I can keep track of the buy-ins on paper and spot check it based on how many new chips are in circulation at any given time. At the end of the night, everyone tells me their up/down number and puts all their chips in the bag. If the bank is off, I can then go back and recheck each persons bag to find out where the problem is. Knock on wood, I have never had a problem using this system.
If I were to host a cashless only game, I would do it as @Goldfish does (I believe). Everybody gets a bag of chips worth X, where X is several bullets. Everybody gets the same amount, so everybody owes the same at the beginning of the night. Cash in for X, cash out for X+/- stack. Seems like it would cut down on so many transfers.
This is what I encourage players to do for my online mavens site (my only difference is them carrying a small balance, and me doing weekly 'top off' cash outs to keep my overall carry reasonable.
People who send transfers for individual bullets gets really annoying and hard to account for.
@Poker Zombie I think your sentiment can be shared by many, including myself. Despite being younger, there are still many aspects of life that used to take place in person that no longer do. I remember opening my first checking account and having a checkbook and ledger, even if only for a few years. I remember as a kid going with my mom to sign up for activities and classes in person. I’m a very outgoing person and love face-to-face interaction.
I definitely think, in a perfect world, that we would be able to move away from all of the digital interactions and transactions we participate in. However, because of the very fast paced and busy life many of us find ourselves in, these quick, convenient digital transactions are something of a necessity. I carry so many things in my pockets that the convenience of digital transactions and not having to worry about coins and small bills is a relief. Instead of spending time driving to banks and sitting in lines I can spend the time with my family or playing poker with the group.
I totally get peoples’ attachment to cash who grew up with it. I don’t think there is a right or wrong here, just preference. It seems silly to hate on a cashless game though - just take the right precautions and there is no reason to worry about taxes or a paper trail. If I was hosting a cash game I would just have to take different precautions - only inviting people I trust, not advertising I have a large amount of cash at my house, etc.
I certainly don't "hate" on the cashless, it's just not my preference. I run the "kitty" at the firehouse, and there are a few that only pay me in Venmo. I certainly don't mind, but that's more cash I have to put into the tray for them. My preferences would be:
All cash > All cashless >>>>>> Combination cash and cashless.
If I were to go to a game and find that was cashless, I am prepared. If I go to a game and find it cash only, I am also prepared. Just deal me in and take my money.
This reminds me of a time - a long time ago. Back when "direct deposit" first became a thing.
A lot of old-timers liked going to the bank. You talked to a human teller at the window. It was most likely a woman, and she probably knew you. Mine was there when I first opened an account, somewhere around 10 or 12 years of age, depositing grandma's birthday money. Later she knew when I got my first paycheck job. She knew when I bought my first car.
There was a certain amount of security there. Nobody was going to find my bank numbers and hack my account - she would know it wasn't me. This wasn't some small town bank either. This was Detroit. Few cities were bigger.
Moreover, there was a certain good feeling. That envelope full of cash. Living paycheck to paycheck it felt good. When you could leave a little in the saving account (all tracked in pen and paper in a little ledger the bank gave you) you would see the numbers go up, page after page. It was like Box Scores for your wealth... but it also came with an envelope full of cash.
Then Direct Deposit came in. Younger kids loved it, while old-timers (like myself) still wanted to talk to Carol (or whatever your particular teller's name was), and refused to sign up. Big bonus - the lines at the bank got shorter and shorter.
Eventually, my workplace no longer allowed direct deposit to be optional. I was forced into the modern world.
I'm not going to lie - it is more convenient. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that this preceded the Great Recession. People were growing up without a physical reminder of their wealth status. No envelope full of cash that got thinner with every purchase. No "Box Score" of wealth as you only had a single number that would change and you could forget about how it was going up or down.
I'm not saying I would go back to paper paychecks. As new, younger players want to deal in Venmo, I will also adapt - but not gladly. My poker bankroll is partially measured by how much paper currency I still have access to without hitting the bank (I almost never used ATM's as it meant not talking to the teller).
The younger generation will never know the pleasure of that envelope, the security of face-to-face interactions, the smell of the bank (they do not smell the same today), the velvet ropes, or shaking the copper out of your envelope and buying 1-4 gumballs out of the penny gumball machine.
Interesting how attached many people seem to be to actual cash.
In Norway cash mostly old people 70+ will use cash on a regular basis (many old people also don't use cash by the way), as society is turning more and more cashless and have been doing that for years already.
I am one of the wierdos who still always has some cash for poker. In actual poker clubs with unknown people I absolutely prefer cash for chips and chips for cash, no doubt. No credit or payment after the fact and stuff like this. However, in a friendly game with more or less close friends where you trust everyone and the stakes are reasonably small, cashless is definitely the way to go. I don't mind having a few 500 kr ($50) banknotes lying around, but if I ended up with many smaller notes and even coins after a game it would just feel super annoying. I probably pay with cash in a store once a year or less. Probably less now that I think about it. Add the fact that someone (the banker) would need to go to an actual bank to get a bunch or small coins and bills to fill up the poker bank to be able to make change.. just such a waste of time.
Friendly social game with low stakes = cashless
Higher stakes with unknowns in a casino/poker club = cash
It seems to me that unless you’re a high roller dealing with huge transfers, American casinos all still operate on cash. Please jump in if I’m wrong - my casino experience is mostly poker and always low stakes. But it seems to me that you need cash to get chips, right? You can’t get chips with a credit card or debit card, right? So I think for many of us, cash is just always associated with poker.
As I've said in the past, I run a cash-only bank, but I will happily convert Venmo to cash out of my pocket when players need it.
I do not allow players to play on credit. But in my low-stakes games, "I'm gonna Venmo you $100" is good enough for me to put my cash in the bank and give them chips right away. I've never had a player take longer than a few minutes to make me right.
I don't have a problem with cashless transactions per se, I make them all the time. My main concern is that I want to avoid leaving digital footprints of what is a quasilegal activity at best in Florida. A couple of transfers to me in an evening paints a very different picture than 15-25 back and forth transfers over the course of a few hours, so my bank will remain cash-only for the foreseeable future.
If social poker at reasonable stakes is ever fully legalized in Florida (or if I move to a state where it is legal), I would have zero problems running a cashless game.
I certainly don't "hate" on the cashless, it's just not my preference. I run the "kitty" at the firehouse, and there are a few that only pay me in Venmo. I certainly don't mind, but that's more cash I have to put into the tray for them. My preferences would be:
All cash > All cashless >>>>>> Combination cash and cashless.
If I were to go to a game and find that was cashless, I am prepared. If I go to a game and find it cash only, I am also prepared. Just deal me in and take my money.
Sorry, that hate comment was not directed to you at all, I didn’t mean for it to come across that way. Your last sentence sums it up: “Just deal me in and take my money.”
It seems to me that unless you’re a high roller dealing with huge transfers, American casinos all still operate on cash. Please jump in if I’m wrong - my casino experience is mostly poker and always low stakes. But it seems to me that you need cash to get chips, right? You can’t get chips with a credit card or debit card, right? So I think for many of us, cash is just always associated with poker.
Some casinos have started accepting debit cards at the tables. There is a fee for the service though, and you don't get a few minutes of walking to come down off your cooler, so it is very beneficial to the casino in multiple ways. There has been a vocal backlash about it being predatory.
It seems to me that unless you’re a high roller dealing with huge transfers, American casinos all still operate on cash. Please jump in if I’m wrong - my casino experience is mostly poker and always low stakes. But it seems to me that you need cash to get chips, right? You can’t get chips with a credit card or debit card, right? So I think for many of us, cash is just always associated with poker.
Could be. In Norway casinos are not allowed, but there are plenty of illegal poker clubs running pretty much in the open. All of those places naturally are all cash. Don't see why a legit casino need to be all cash though, but maybe they are.
Over here, while poker rooms in general are illegal, we do have one legit tournament series running for a week every early October which is the Norwegian championship. It has multiple big tourneys with 1000+ runners, and that event is all cashless. No buyins allowed with cash or credit cards.
I do not allow playing on credit, and have no plans on ever allowing it. I prefer cash for poker. I remind players every game to bring enough cash to cover their buy ins. There are a few players that want to use Venmo for rebuys, I pull cash from my bankroll and put it into the cash box. I have started charging 5% to buy cash from the bank or Natumes ($100 rebuy gets you $95 chips) to drive this home. Only 2 players don't consistently bring enough cash, and I suspect that they are both using Venmo to rebuy using credit cards. I'm certainly not going to offer credit, and I don't want them playing on credit cards either. Letting someone dig into a financial hole is a different discussion, but I don't want it happening at my home.
I love the ledger idea though, and I'm going to start doing one to double check my numbers. My bank is almost never off (and only ever when there are Venmo transactions mixed in), but it irks me to end it it's not perfect.
Some casinos have started accepting debit cards at the tables. There is a fee for the service though, and you don't get a few minutes of walking to come down off your cooler, so it is very beneficial to the casino in multiple ways. There has been a vocal backlash about it being predatory.
Heck, you can cash your paycheck at some casinos. So if we can find a way to pump the old bank smell through the vents, you could reclaim the experience of years past.
Moreover, there was a certain good feeling. That envelope full of cash. Living paycheck to paycheck it felt good. When you could leave a little in the saving account (all tracked in pen and paper in a little ledger the bank gave you) you would see the numbers go up, page after page. It was like Box Scores for your wealth... but it also came with an envelope full of cash.
Yes, and I think these routines also encouraged people (consciously or not) to save more, spend less recklessly, and be more aware of how both routine and extraordinary purchases impacted their finances in the short-and-long term.
It imposed a regular time—if only for 20-30 minutes every couple weeks—when your balance, available cash, expenses, burn rate, and overall financial well-being were uppermost in your mind. And if you withdrew a certain amount every week to cover expenses, but in a given 7-14 day period you ran low on cash sooner than expected, that was more noticeable.
With electronic transactions and online accounts, you can of course check such things every second of every day if you like. However I tend to think that the ease and availability of all that data actually contributes to the opposite—maybe more shallow awareness of transactions, but far less deep thinking about managing your money.
I do not allow players to play on credit. But in my low-stakes games, "I'm gonna Venmo you $100" is good enough for me to put my cash in the bank and give them chips right away. I've never had a player take longer than a few minutes to make me right.
I likewise do not lend money to any players under any circumstances. It’s a headache and eventually leads to awkward or nasty situations.
If players want to loan each other money they can, but that’s between them. If I saw someone regularly borrowing from others on a game-to-game basis, I would try to talk with them.
If someone wanted to Venmo or PayPal me for cash, I’d do it, but no one has ever asked. People know to bring a big enough roll to ensure they at least get a full night of cards in if they want to.
As for myself, I long ago made a rule that I will never, ever hit an ATM at a casino or borrow money at a game, or even Venmo someone to get one more cash buy-in. I decide before any private game or casino visit how many buy-ins I’m bringing, and that’s that.
It’s a great stoploss device to prevent me from chasing losses if I’m playing my C-game. Sure, once in a very long while there might be a situation where I just run into a series of bad beats in a soft game where I should be able to recoup losses if I stick with it, but overall I think this has helped me stay in the black for a long time.
It's been 15-20 years since I last saw a paper paycheck. However, I'm aware that when Mrs Zombie lived in Reno, she would often cash her check at casinos for the free buffet.
I won't out a lady's age... but she's old enough to have enjoyed free buffets. Take that Gen Z!
How are poker winnings from home games technically supposed to be handled in the US when it comes to taxes?
If potentially taxable seems like a bad idea to have a paper trail. When I started doing online weekly during covid the constant in and out to my electronic account after one year added to a significant amount. Enough to make me reconsider doing it regularily.
If you’re a winning player, it’s technically considered taxable income. It’s not a real concern though. Most Americans won’t report it since it’s so difficult for IRS to track, especially when the transaction is between “friends and family,” just like we don’t really worry about taxes buying/selling chips here.
If you’re a winning player, it’s technically considered taxable income. It’s not a real concern though. Most Americans won’t report it since it’s so difficult for IRS to track, especially when the transaction is between “friends and family,” just like we don’t really worry about taxes buying/selling chips here.
Except that there are reports that people here have been notified by PayPal that their F&F income is being reported to the IRS.
It was difficult for the IRS to track. The electronic trail has made it extremely easy.
PS: I am not one of those that was notified, so I take this as hearsay. It feels believable, but they could also be unsubstantiated claims motivated by political bias.
@ArielVer18, I built an app that pretty much implements exactly your process, and published an update today. I'll quote your initial post and show you screenshots. Would appreciate your feedback here!
Cashless Buy-In
Player announces he wants to buy in
Banker repeats the announcement to the entire table
Write down Name and Amount
Place new chips in front of player for two-party visual verification (ask for 3rd person if preferred)
In the app, you can add people to your game and record buys electronically. You can configure an amount in your "bank" so if you have your chips nicely racked, you can verify that your bank is good and you're distributing the correct number of chips.
Cash Buy-In
Player announces he wants to buy in
Banker repeats the announcement to the entire table
Accept the cash
Place cash in a temporary location (for me, on the rail in front of me underneath a notepad)
Place new chips in front of player for two-party visual verification (ask for 3rd person if preferred)
Move cash from temporary location to where you normally keep the rest of everyone's cash (for me, front right pants pocket)
How to Handle Players Leaving Early
Credit players leave with their profit (otherwise the juice starts five points a week on Mike)
(chip stack) - (buyin) = profit
Profit can be provided in cash. If the player prefers cashless, the banker will Venmo the profit amount to the player and write down a negative number next to the banker's name in the ledger. The negative number means the poker bank owes that amount to the banker's personal wallet.
Credit players leaving early with a loss need to pay immediately. Venmo the banker and the banker will write down a positive number next to the banker's name in the ledger. The positive number means the banker's personal wallet owes that amount to the poker bank.
In other words, credit player leaving early with a profit:
stack - buyin = get cash OR venmo & -# me
Credit player leaving early with a loss:
buyin - stack = venmo me; +# me
In this case, you can record a payment from player to player (let's say if you don't trust a new player, and want them to venmo before they leave, or accept cash from someone).
How to End the Game
Cash out time at the end of the game is worrisome for all hosts. The slowest, but most secure, procedure is for the banker to count everyone's chip stack. For me, a few minutes before the end of the game, I count the cash so I know how much the total number of chips on the table should add up to. At the end of the game, everyone counts their own stack and shouts out how much they think they're owed. This step doesn't take too long because players normally start counting before the last hand is over, especially after they've already folded.
If the math is correct, everyone gets paid at the same time. If it's off, I say it's wrong and to recount, but I don't tell them how much it's off by in case someone wants to game the system. If there's really one or two players who can't count correctly, they get help from me or a neighboring player (with a mandatory healthy dose of friendly needling, of course).
Whether or not there's enough cash to pay everyone depends on where your players are on the cash/cashless spectrum. If there isn't enough cash left, you can figure out as a group who wants the cash. For example, you can pay the diehard cash-only players in cash first. My crew generally does not have a preference between receiving cash or cashless, but most people do not want to receive a massive stack of small denomination bills.
Most of the time, the biggest winner can be the central hub for all the electronic transfers. All the losing players pay the biggest winner their net losses and the other winners request their net winnings from the biggest winner. This minimizes* the number of transactions and amount transferred while keeping it simple to understand.
*There's actually an algorithm to truly minimize the number of transactions and amount transferred and can even discourage transactions between players who aren't very familiar with each other, but it requires complex math that no one wants to do at the end of a long poker session.
On the cashout screen, you can type in everyone's cashout amounts and it'll tell you how much is left on the table. Once you're done, it'll calculate who needs to pay who, and you can add additional payments to adjust the final totals. After you're happy with the results, you can hit "Finalize" and it'll generate a log you can send to all the players. The app does all the complex math so you don't have to!
