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Hustler Casino Live (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter AnteAndy
- Start date
This is ridiculous.
First, I didn't say his accusations weren't warranted. I said the way he went about it was incredibly irresponsible and totally inappropriate. Obviously, if he thinks someone is cheating he should immediately extract himself from the game. He should formally complain to the casino management running the game. He should vehemently insist that they thoroughly investigate the matter. But that all needs to happen behind the scenes. If he wants to publicly state that he believes the hand was suspicious and has asked the house to look into it, then fine. But he took that way too far by splattering accusations of absolute certainty that he was cheated all over the web with zero evidence. That was unprofessional and inexcusable. Those actions need to be reprimanded.
As far as how bad the call was, sure, it was bad. To call it the worst call in the history of poker is ludicrous. I've made calls as bad and I've witnessed calls as bad. And I haven't played anywhere close to 20 million hands. I've seen plenty of all in calls with similarly bad hands when someone thought they were being pushed around by a big stack or a player who thought he was God's gift to poker. Good grief! Bluffing is a HUGE part of poker, so to think no player in history has ever made a worse call when they thought they were being bluffed is a gross exaggeration.
This whole situation is a bunch of poker people with public platforms seeing an opportunity to pile on and generate publicity for themselves. To not recognize all the exaggerations being thrown around is just silly.
daschuck77
Two Pair
Bart who was commentating that night chimes in:
I saw that too. Almost every shot is him looking like a kid in short chair or with a woman’s body
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Not necessarily. She wants to project that image, but admitted on Joey Ingrams channel that Rip had 50% of her action and "other backers" had the remaining 50%
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
She never said she had a 3 during the hand though. In fact, she expressly answered that she did not when someone asked "do you have 3s?" and she said "no", then again answered "no" when the next player asked, "do you have a 3?". This was all immediately after she sat there staring at her cards for about 15 seconds while deciding whether or not to call. I absolutely do not believe that she misread her hand here. Also, when players do misread their hand, there's pretty much always an "oh shit" moment as soon as they realize it. She did not have one of those moments.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
This exactly. Her J3 narrative came like 15 minutes later after she had already given 27 other reasons for calling
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Because she just expressly stated twice that she did not have a 3. She's not saying here that she has them. She's asking him if he can even beat 3s. Or so that's my read of what she said.
JScott
Flush
So much of this would point to her not cheating, the bad spot, the other hands she played, the fact she gave the money back, the bad odds. But the things that are really off is how she's leaning so hard into misread hand. she checked it a lot during the hand you can't tell me she just looked at the Jack if her pair was the 3's, and it's not like she had anything to give away after Gman pushed all in.
Her twitter is such a mess too, the way she's acting is absolutely fucked. She's like a child, making the dumbest play ever, then calling Garret out for a heads up match like she's not an idiot. I mean, when the options are A.) you're an absolute idiot or B.) you're an absolute idiot AND a cheater... it doesn't give you much high road.
Anyone bringing misogyny into this can get right fucked though, it's such a scapegoat for any topic that includes women.
Her twitter is such a mess too, the way she's acting is absolutely fucked. She's like a child, making the dumbest play ever, then calling Garret out for a heads up match like she's not an idiot. I mean, when the options are A.) you're an absolute idiot or B.) you're an absolute idiot AND a cheater... it doesn't give you much high road.
Anyone bringing misogyny into this can get right fucked though, it's such a scapegoat for any topic that includes women.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
I'm not inclined to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of a man dressed as a giant black magnum condom
You can't get away forever...
jpietrella
4 of a Kind
A million times yes.
You know you have to be at the game to be within striking distance?
Ooh, that's a low blow. I'm going to go cry in the corner now and sharpen my knives.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I agree with your take that Garrett shouldn't have publicly accused her without proof. But he also shouldn't have continued in the game. The call was suspicious enough for him to be reasonably confident that somehow, she had intel about his cards.
As far as whether or not it's the "worst call in poker history" or not, I think we'll have to agree to disagree. But I will preface that by saying it entirely depends on whether or not you believe she in fact misread her hand. Obviously, we can't know every hand of poker that has ever been played, and surely there are examples of worse calls from players who don't know how to play or who are brand new to the game, but I was a professional poker player for almost 13 years. I've seen A LOT of poker hands (a few million+). @Anthony Martino is also a professional poker player who has seen A LOT of hands. Doug Polk has played many millions of hands. Shaun Deeb has played over 20 million hands. Garrett as well. All of us (and countless other pros) agree that if she knew what her cards were and if she wasn't cheating, then it would be the worst call we've ever seen or heard of. Yet somehow, an army of novices all seem to think, "nah, I've seen much worse calls than that numerous times" in their lives, despite drawing from MUCH smaller sample sizes (perhaps tens of thousands of hands? Maybe a hundred or two thousand hands if you play a lot?) Why do you think that is? I would suggest that maybe, just maybe, there's something about this hand that you guys just aren't quite grasping.
It's also worth noting that every pro I've seen who thinks she didn't have intel on Garrett's hand simply just believes her when she says she misread her hand and she thought she had J3. Note, this is a different question. If she did simply misread her hand, then none of this discussion even matters and it would just be a big nothing burger. But if you don't believe that she misread her hand, and you still think it's just another random bad call, the likes of which you think you've seen worse many times, then I would argue you're wrong and that you simply don't understand poker as well as you think you do.
As far as Ivey goes, obviously his opinion means a lot. But also it’s important to point out that
1) he’s very drama averse
and
2) he’d probably say a lot of things if they would end the interview as quickly as possible.
And that other old musclehead dipshit can eff right off.
But I’m probably most persuaded by what Bart said about looking at other hands from the session and finding no evidence of even suggestion of cheating - that’s important. It mostly precludes a sophisticated scheme.
I think I want to believe she was cheating because she sucks. And don’t call me a misogynist for judging her by her plastic whore appearance. I judge Persson for the same reasons.
Also Bart’s video reminded me of more bias - right after the hand when she was all “you’re not the only one who who gets lucky, Garrett, don’t get so upset” replete with cuntiness. Fact is, she was too stupid to realize exactly how stupid she was, so it’s tough to blame her for posturing and acting tough enough to hang with that actual-poker-playing crowd.
I’m not persuaded that she cheated.
Me thinking that I understand poker well:
When @RainmanTrail tells me that I simply don't understand poker as well as I think I do:
When @RainmanTrail tells me that I simply don't understand poker as well as I think I do:
Okay so I 100% agree with all of this. Except I regret to inform you that sometime in 2017 a player named Lee made what was the worst call in the history of poker. And no it can’t be beat. Lee my friends called a river jam with the 32o. He had no pair it had 3 high and he didn’t know he was literally calling to chop at best.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
It is not mysogyny though to note that, in general, men and women do in fact play poker differently. And there are certainly some extremely strong female players out there (I'm sitting next to one right now in a HORSE tournament in fact). But as I stated earlier, I also used to run and deal in a weekly women's only tournament at a casino in WA back in the day. I've very much witnessed first hand what the differences are between how men and women both play poker. If you've ever played in a women's only tournament or if you've ever dealt one before, you'd certainly be able to attest to this. The differences aren't minor. Pretending as though we're all just the same and that any observations to the contrary are somehow "misogynistic" is either dishonest, unhelpful, or both. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that there are differences between men and women. It's just a fact of life. That's not mysogyny.
In my experience, the average woman I encounter at the poker table tends to be more agressive than the average man. I’ve always assumed that’s either a reaction to being the lone woman playing with men, or a personality trait of a woman who would jump into a man’s game, or both. And maybe those ladies play differently when they find themselves at a table of all women - I wouldn’t know, I’ve never been invited to the slumber party.
But I am surprised when I see people suggest that women don’t play poker as aggressively as men. Because generalizations are dumb, but my experience suggests otherwise.
bergs
Royal Flush
So you think she had access to the hole cards AND SEPARATELY access to the cards in the shuffler? Two relatively difficult to pull off and conceal hacks, and the people backing her chose her to pull the off, knowing she didn’t know enough about poker to do it competently and pick a fairly good spot.
That’s incredible. I bet if you go through the previous 12 hands you could’ve found 3 better spots for her to take this line with all the cheating assets she apparently had in place.
I honestly think it’s weird that people want it to be cheating so badly. I don’t understand it but it seems to be the more regular players that feel that way. It’s just odd. Stupidity, stubbornness, and embarrassment are much simpler and more likely explanations.
(For those saying that was the worst call ever, try watching me calling 1200 big blinds three handed on the river where the straight and flush get there at a high only Big O board and I don’t notice - now THAT is a bad call).
TheDuke
Full House
For those that are convinced she cheated, have you studied all the other hands she played that night? Surely, there's evidence of other hands that are offside.
With all of your billions of hands of experience, which lead you to conclude she is cheating; you have more than one hand of evidence right?
With all of your billions of hands of experience, which lead you to conclude she is cheating; you have more than one hand of evidence right?
Thing I would never do under pressure: Give away $100,000+ that I earned fair and square.
Oh and as for “pressure”: She was having a discussion with the producer present, in a public space, where there are tons of security guards and cameras on the off chance anything goes south. Plus her hothead male partner/defender just steps away. The idea that she felt threatened seems manufactured.
You know what’s truly stupid?
Playing way, way above your head, at absurd stakes, winning one hand with moves that will cost you millions long term, fumbling around like a fool trying to explain yourself… Then a day later posturing like you’re a master of the universe.
I can't argue with this. If his initial instinct was cheating, he should have picked up immediately. If he's right, he obviously shouldn't be playing in the game. And if he's wrong, the idea of being cheated will still have a negative impact on his mental state and his game.
Does that mean he should announce to the world that he's confident she cheated because she played the hand wrong? No.
Maybe I missed it (this topic is spread over 4-5 threads now), but I don't think any of the people in the "probably not cheating" camp have said this.
I don't have millions of hands behind me, so I guess I'm one of those novices. But I've said more than once that whether she was cheating or not, she played the hand about as badly as humanly possible. I wouldn't say I've seen many worse calls than that, though I've seen a few from clueless newbs that are equally bad. But those were for cheeseburgers, not a $300K pot.
My real complaint is that most of the pro-cheating crowd, yourself included, is not even allowing for the possibility that this was bad play. I'm open to the idea that it might have been cheating (though I lean heavily in the other direction), but you and others seem to be 100% convinced that it was cheating in spite of having zero real evidence other than "she played the hand horribly."
I think that if she got confused and thought she had J3, it makes sense and explains away a lot of the "evidence" that she was cheating. But I also think there's a smaller but non-zero chance that she just made a horribad call.
TheDuke
Full House
I'd argue that playing way above your means with other people's money is actually pretty impressive. Somehow people are comfortable backing her. Especially given her lack of experience.
I think the folks who may have a screw loose are those backing her. But then again, they're the ones with hundreds of thousands of spare cash to throw around and likely lose. So they're doing something right.
I think you're being overly generous in projecting her future poker earning as reaching millions.
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