I think I'm out, guys (Casino Cancun drama advice requested) (4 Viewers)

Who's chips are these?

  • The chips are yours. Keep them and move on.

    Votes: 158 82.7%

  • The chips are davin's, send them to him.

    Votes: 33 17.3%
  • Total voters
    191
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Knowing nothing more than is posted in this thread about the situation, I side with @luv2breformed on this.

If someone can point to a public post by @davin where he alerts the community in detail about missing or stolen property I might find more sympathy about this situation. The louder the alarm, the better. Best I can tell from the thread, this did not happen. Any discussion was kept private.

I do not support the notion that a low eBay price is a sign of stolen property. The better case is the seller was extremely ignorant, so much so that he sold the chips for less than the cost of shipping. We all search for things like that. And then fight like a flock of seagulls to gobble up the bargains. This deal is better than most, but not the best deal ever. This is not a red flag situation unless Davin made his specific losses well known in the forum, best I can tell this is not the case.

Are the police and/or postal authorities involved? The balance could swing back towards even if there is a stolen property report. We have seen this sort of thing before, where a member's private collection was stolen and passed through several hands before we got wind of it. Some sort of deal got struck to salvage the situation - but it involved a fortune in chips and the thief got off scott-free. Bottom line, if Davin can prove these chips were stolen or part of a mail fraud, then he has the right to recover his property. ( eBay will take care of making the buyer whole. ) Absent such proof, the luv is the legitimate owner. Davin had the opportunity to purchase insurance against the loss which apparently he didn't do. < not that I put much weight on a lack of insurance given how worthless postal insurance has turned out to be. >

I am a bit hesitant to judge the interactions between the two parties since I can't be sure about the accuracy or completeness of the comments, but I can not help myself. I found the material from Davin leveling threats to be very inappropriate. If it had been me on the other side ( i.e. the eBay buyer ) , I know my reaction wouldn't have been as sweet as actually happened. If there isn't a specific belief that the chips were stolen by the PCF member, then why would anyone think the best way to handle this was with aggression and threats?

I do not see how Luv should be held accountable or responsible for what happened. I think Davin took a wildly mistaken course of action, damaged everyone's reputation and owes an apology. We can try to help him recover his lost / stolen property. But Luv is not responsible to do anything more than return stolen/lost property at the request of the authorities. If the authorities aren't asking for the return, then that is that. Luv keeps the chips and doesn't owe anyone compensation or even an explanation.

DrStrange

PS this isn't a question about Davin making up a story about missing chips. I am sure he is missing something. But the way to put us on alert for lost / stolen property is not through private messages. Make public posts. Shout from the roof tops that your stuff is stolen, please keep an eye out of it. Be detailed about what is missing, how many chips, denominations etc. Don't expect to complain after the fact about someone bought up chips that might be missing property.
 
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Tommy said:
@davin Where you the receiver of said missing box? Which country's Customs was it stuck in?
Click to expand...
tommy if you look at my photos on page 2 it shows it last scanned at NY ISC also if you enter the tracking number it shows up as well
 
DrStrange said:
Knowing nothing more than is posted in this thread about the situation, I side with @luv2breformed on this.

If someone can point to a public post by @davin where he alerts the community in detail about missing or stolen property I might find more sympathy about this situation. The louder the alarm, the better. Best I can tell from the thread, this did not happen. Any discussion was kept private.

I do not support the notion that a low eBay price is a sign of stolen property. The better case is the seller was extremely ignorant, so much so that he sold the chips for less than the cost of shipping. We all search for things like that. And then fight like a flock of seagulls to gobble up the bargains. This deal is better than most, but not the best deal ever. This is not a red flag situation unless Davin made his specific losses well known in the forum, best I can tell this is not the case.

Are the police and/or postal authorities involved? The balance could swing back towards even if there is a stolen property report. We have seen this sort of thing before, where a member's private collection was stolen and passed through several hands before we got wind of it. Some sort of deal got struck to salvage the situation - but it involved a fortune in chips and the thief got off scott-free. Bottom line, if Davin can prove these chips were stolen or part of a mail fraud, then he has the right to recover his property. ( eBay will take care of making the buyer whole. ) Absent such proof, the luv is the legitimate owner. Davin had the opportunity to purchase insurance against the loss which apparently he didn't do. < not that I put much weight on a lack of insurance given how worthless postal insurance has turned out to be. >

I am a bit hesitant to judge the interactions between the two parties since I can't be sure about the accuracy or completeness of the comments, but I can not help myself. I found the material from Davin leveling threats to be very inappropriate. If it had been me on the other side ( i.e. the eBay buyer ) , I know my reaction wouldn't have been as sweet as actually happened. If there isn't a specific belief that the chips were stolen by the PCF member, then why would anyone think the best way to handle this was with aggression and threats?

I do not see how Luv should be held accountable or responsible for what happened. I think Davin took a wildly mistaken course of action, damaged everyone's reputation and owes an apology. We can try to help him recover his lost / stolen property. But Luv is not responsible to do anything more than return stolen/lost property at the request of the authorities. If the authorities aren't asking for the return, then that is that. Luv keeps the chips and doesn't owe anyone compensation or even an explanation.

DrStrange
Click to expand...
there's over 20 members i can point out that knows about me missing a box
 
davin said:
tommy if you look at my photos on page 2 it shows it last scanned at NY ISC also if you enter the tracking number it shows up as well
Click to expand...

Where you the shipper or receiver?
 
What a mess, and to be honest I have a hard time siding against @luv2breformed on this one. I've seen the evidence in the thread, and there is a good chance these are the chips that were "lost" in the mail, but how was @luv2breformed supposed to even know about this? He certainly didn't buy them with the knowledge we have now.

It's a crappy situation, and I'd love to see this resolved with @luv2breformed able to keep the chips he has been searching for. Since @davin already flipped 11,000 chips for profit, maybe they can come to a resolution where he gets some more money and @luv2breformed pays him a little more?
 
hdgeno said:
What a mess, and to be honest I have a hard time siding against @luv2breformed on this one. I've seen the evidence in the thread, and there is a good chance these are the chips that were "lost" in the mail, but how was @luv2breformed supposed to even know about this? He certainly didn't buy them with the knowledge we have now.

It's a crappy situation, and I'd love to see this resolved with @luv2breformed able to keep the chips he has been searching for. Since @davin already flipped 11,000 chips for profit, maybe they can come to a resolution where he gets some more money and @luv2breformed pays him a little more?
Click to expand...

PROFITS? if you knew how much i made you would laugh also try being out 1000 chips and a $115 in shipping from INT
 
MegaTon44 said:
Let's be real, those are stolen property.
Click to expand...

Not so fast. If they were stuck in Customs because the package contents or value was misrepresented it could have been held for duties/taxes etc. When items are not claimed after a period of time, they get sold off. No idea if that happened but its a possibility. The shipper would be the responsible party to correct the problem and get the package released.
 
Tommy said:
No so fast. If they were stuck in Customs because the package contents or value was misrepresented it could have been held for duties/taxes etc. When items are not claimed after a period of time, they get sold off. No idea if that happened but its a possibility. The shipped would be the responsible party to correct the problem and get the package released.
Click to expand...
shipper and receiver has contacted both customs and usps and was told the box was missing and to file a missing claim, we sure knew it wasn't missing
 
davin said:
PROFITS? if you knew how much i made you would laugh also try being out 1000 chips and a $115 in shipping from INT
Click to expand...
Lol. I wish all my deals that have gone bad thru the years were just 1000 chips and 115 bucks.
 
colter ripton said:
I've lost boxes in the mail before. If months later, someone found the same chips I wouldnt ask for them back. Even if I was 100 percent sure that they were the chips I lost. I would say congrats on the find man. If I really wanted the chips I would offer to buy them. @luv2breformed didnt do anything wrong. He searched and found a great deal on some chips. I dont think he is in any way obligated to send the chips to @davin The fact that they have green sharpie on the boxes doesnt mean much. Who is the mysterious seller with the crappy hand writing? The fact that an eBay seller sold them for 50 dollars doesnt mean much either. I have got some great deals on eBay. They are few and far between, but they are out there if you search hard.

Here is another scenario. What if a casino worker or someone related to the auction got these and gave them away as a gift? What if the person that received the gift didnt want them, and didnt know their value, and sold them on eBay for 50 dollars? Is that not possible?

I also think that when you send something in the mail and dont insure it it is your own fault. I mean, I dont always insure my packages, but I know it is a gamble and I am alright with taking the risk. If a package of mine goes missing I would never ask for someone to repay me for a loss I took.
Even if I was 100 percent sure that these were my exact chips.

I'd say the chips are yours @luvtobreformed.

If I got this deal on eBay or any other classifieds listing I wouldnt send them to someone else for free. I would however tell @davin who I bought them from. There is no way that anything would come of it though. There is simply no evidence that this eBay seller stole these chips. Try going to the local police with the green sharpie theory. See how far that will get you.

@davin you should have insured your box man. When you gamble and lose you dont ask for your money back.

Just my 2c and I'm not trying to be an asshole to anyone.
Click to expand...

DrStrange said:
Knowing nothing more than is posted in this thread about the situation, I side with @luv2breformed on this.

If someone can point to a public post by @davin where he alerts the community in detail about missing or stolen property I might find more sympathy about this situation. The louder the alarm, the better. Best I can tell from the thread, this did not happen. Any discussion was kept private.

I do not support the notion that a low eBay price is a sign of stolen property. The better case is the seller was extremely ignorant, so much so that he sold the chips for less than the cost of shipping. We all search for things like that. And then fight like a flock of seagulls to gobble up the bargains. This deal is better than most, but not the best deal ever. This is not a red flag situation unless Davin made his specific losses well known in the forum, best I can tell this is not the case.

Are the police and/or postal authorities involved? The balance could swing back towards even if there is a stolen property report. We have seen this sort of thing before, where a member's private collection was stolen and passed through several hands before we got wind of it. Some sort of deal got struck to salvage the situation - but it involved a fortune in chips and the thief got off scott-free. Bottom line, if Davin can prove these chips were stolen or part of a mail fraud, then he has the right to recover his property. ( eBay will take care of making the buyer whole. ) Absent such proof, the luv is the legitimate owner. Davin had the opportunity to purchase insurance against the loss which apparently he didn't do. < not that I put much weight on a lack of insurance given how worthless postal insurance has turned out to be. >

I am a bit hesitant to judge the interactions between the two parties since I can't be sure about the accuracy or completeness of the comments, but I can not help myself. I found the material from Davin leveling threats to be very inappropriate. If it had been me on the other side ( i.e. the eBay buyer ) , I know my reaction wouldn't have been as sweet as actually happened. If there isn't a specific belief that the chips were stolen by the PCF member, then why would anyone think the best way to handle this was with aggression and threats?

I do not see how Luv should be held accountable or responsible for what happened. I think Davin took a wildly mistaken course of action, damaged everyone's reputation and owes an apology. We can try to help him recover his lost / stolen property. But Luv is not responsible to do anything more than return stolen/lost property at the request of the authorities. If the authorities aren't asking for the return, then that is that. Luv keeps the chips and doesn't owe anyone compensation or even an explanation.

DrStrange

PS this isn't a question about Davin making up a story about missing chips. I am sure he is missing something. But the way to put us on alert for lost / stolen property is not through private messages. Make public posts. Shout from the roof tops that your stuff is stolen, please keep an eye out of it. Be detailed about what is missing, how many chips, denominations etc. Don't expect to complain after the fact about someone bought up chips that might be missing property.
Click to expand...

Tommy said:
No so fast. If they were stuck in Customs because the package contents or value was misrepresented it could have been held for duties/taxes etc. When items are not claimed after a period of time, they get sold off. No idea if that happened but its a possibility. The shipper would be the responsible party to correct the problem and get the package released.
Click to expand...

These posts carry a lot of weight imo. There is nothing @luv2breformed did wrong, and in fact, he did more than many would after finding a deal this good
 
Tommy said:
Not so fast. If they were stuck in Customs because the package contents or value was misrepresented it could have been held for duties/taxes etc. When items are not claimed after a period of time, they get sold off. No idea if that happened but its a possibility. The shipper would be the responsible party to correct the problem and get the package released.
Click to expand...
Stolen or not stolen, I believe these chips were paid for by @davin and were technically his property, and that property failed to reach him.

If someone does not believe those are davin's lost chips, then there is no debate, luv should keep them. I personally believe they are the lost chips. Therefore, in my humble and non-expert deontological opinion, ignorance or plausible deniability can no longer be claimed and the appropriate thing would be to return the chips to the rightful owner. This becomes an ethics debate. Is luv/davin guilty of anything? No. Is luv/davin a piece shit? Not unless they act like it going forward. If both parties can make a fair arrangement, it could settle this simply.
 
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davin said:
View attachment 218586
Click to expand...
Just want to say that 5 below the one you reference is different. I’m not sure this rock solid evidence really proves anything as the first thought I had when you mentioned it was that someone (anyone) who touched the boxes could have put the numbers on at anytime. In my mind the casino employee wrote it on the boxes.

If you think my comments are out of line I apologize I just watched an episode of Bull and thought of reasonable doubt, which is what your picture shows in my mind.
 
Forty4 said:
Just want to say that 5 below the one you reference is different. I’m not sure this rock solid evidence really proves anything as the first thought I had when you mentioned it was that someone (anyone) who touched the boxes could have put the numbers on at anytime. In my mind the casino employee wrote it on the boxes.

If you think my comments are out of line I apologize I just watched an episode of Bull and thought of reasonable doubt, which is what your picture shows in my mind.
Click to expand...

Not (1) there is (2) 5 that match

53048377-6FC0-4C7E-9624-3F135C94DFFE.jpeg
EFBB4C54-AD9B-4E7A-8EDA-BB59BA6332B7.png
 
I’m not sure the law is all that relevant here.

Chips went missing in customs. They weren’t insured, but also ups is basically saying they don’t know what happened.

Luv did nothing wrong, he is legally within his rights to keep them (unless later required to hand them back by police etc)

Realistically the photo is virtual proof they are Davins chips. This still doesn’t obligate luv to give them back. He could disappear into the night and be quite within his rights.

Morally and in the spirit of this community he should work out a deal with Davin to return them. Davin should pay him the $50 plus shipping and imo give him a rack or two for free at the very least.

Luv would get 2 racks and be happy and Davin would recover almost all of his chips.

Everyone can be friends.

Sod the law, it’s not that helpful, let’s look out for eachother.
 
Perthmike said:
I’m not sure the law is all that relevant here.

Chips went missing in customs. They weren’t insured, but also ups is basically saying they don’t know what happened.

Luv did nothing wrong, he is legally within his rights to keep them (unless later required to hand them back by police etc)

Realistically the photo is virtual proof they are Davins chips. This still doesn’t obligate luv to give them back. He could disappear into the night and be quite within his rights.

Morally and in the spirit of this community he should work out a deal with Davin to return them. Davin should pay him the $50 plus shipping and imo give him a rack or two for free at the very least.

Luv would get 2 racks and be happy and Davin would recover almost all of his chips.

Everyone can be friends
Click to expand...
I've been saying let him keep a 400 count set, Devin gets the rest to resell. Everyone wins. Before this moment Devin had nothing, and before he bought them he had fifty more bucks. He gets a killer set for a deal. Everyone wins something....
 
Ok so we have @davin who is rightly upset that he's missing chips and the chips that @luv2breformed managed to snag off eBay matchup very closely with the missing denoms @davin claims others knew of, and the writing on the boxes certainly matches.

@luv2breformed also says he wants to "do the right thing" but at the same time he doesn't really want to surrender this sweet deal he managed to snag.

I don't think Luv is guilty of anything, but I can also empathize with Davins situation.

We need to find a deal where each party can wind up somewhat happy. Davin, what end result are you seeking here? Do you want all the chips returned to you or are you most interested in the financial loss?

If you want ALL the chips back, I think Luv should receive something more than $50 plus the cost of shipping. What that amount is I couldn't say, but he'll wind up taking some sort of overall loss himself with a deal like that, which isn't entirely fair to him either.

On the flip side, if you are more concerned with your financial loss, perhaps you can agree to him paying a reduced number to you. He still gets a good deal on chips that make him happy and you receive something back for chips you had no insurance on.

There needs to be a solution where both parties win a little and lose a little, rather than one side taking the full hit, I think. I hope you guys can work it out.
 
I agree with @Josh Kifer and @Perthmike. He should not be forced to do anything. But In good spirit he should work something out to help a fellow man. I also agree davin should be thankful to get anything back and not threatening or upset with the innocent party.

On a lighter note who else is checking eBay currently?
 
The situation sucks. I think the law is on the side of @luv2breformed :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_purchaser

But these look like Davin’s chips. I would try to work out a split of the chips if I were I either party's shoes. Neither side gets what they want. But Davin could get some of his chips back and luv2breformed could get a nice starter set.
 
davin said:
Not (1) there is (2) 5 that match

View attachment 218611View attachment 218612
Click to expand...
Point is that in my mind, I see different hand writing. Also my mind of internal controls has two employees boxing up chips from casino at closing, maybe even opening to check inventory of chips. Doesn’t prove the chips are yours because of the picture is my point.

I don’t know all the details of the closing and the subsequent purchase of the chips, all I’m doing is point out reasonable doubt. If seller had written his name, or some other unique identifier, on the box that would be a different story.
 
I bought a Cancun set from Davin this year in an auction. He told me about the missing box at the time because I got 2 racks of ones (not many folks got that many ones) and he mentioned hoping his other box would come through with more of them.

I feel bad but these chips are clearly the ones that Davin paid for and never received. If you accept that, I don’t know how the outcome can be anything other that returning the chips to the rightful owner.

The satisfaction of doing the right thing is worth far more than $2,500.
 
I vote with the split the chips scenario. Mostly because I’m only ever going to be the type of chipper that randomly happens upon a deal, and not the type that aquires 11,000 chips to flip (regardless of profit margin) or sets up shell companies to order chips. The divide here is real... and this seems to be another dividing line we don’t need.

Share the chips and move on.
 
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