KK on the button straddle (2 Viewers)

[derekdd23]

Normally I make it 120 when it comes back to me when there is a caller. If it was just the one guy i make it 70 or so.

I would rely on my read for the next action, i wasn't there and dont have one so i usually fold since there are probably better spots to be had. Plus you only invested 80 and you will likely get to see his hand since the other guy is all in too, so no information is lost.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Going back to the original action, I think SOHEWC's choice of $70 is exactly the right raise size, specifically to leave the action open for a re-raise if BB calls and MP shoves.

Moving forward to the $200 raise, it would cross my mind to fold KK, but I don't think this is the spot for it. BB doesn't need to be holding AA to make that move (and of course, neither does MP, though that barely matters now). In fact, I think an unknown BB's range could even be a bit wider than just QQ–AA in this spot, since BTN's raise isn't necessarily super-strong (new guy, in position, could be a squeeze play, could be a spew monkey).

Of course, knowing that bentax is BB changes everything. Now I'm folding KK because he obviously has a straight flush. But without knowing that, it's a shove.

 

[bentax1978]

Moving forward to the $200 raise, it would cross my mind to fold KK, but I don't think this is the spot for it. BB doesn't need to be holding AA to make that move (and of course, neither does MP, though that barely matters now). In fact, I think an unknown BB's range could even be a bit wider than just QQ–AA in this spot, since BTN's raise isn't necessarily super-strong (new guy, in position, could be a squeeze play, could be a spew monkey).

FWIW, after the button made it $80, I ranged him as TT-AA, AQ-AK, maybe 88/99/AJ. I also considered that there was a distinct possibility that he was trying to squeeze me, and/or that he might be a spew monkey

Of course, knowing that bentax is BB changes everything. Now I'm folding KK because he obviously has a straight flush. But without knowing that, it's a shove.

And yes, I'm sure I would have hit the SF too if Button (KK) and MP (TT) didn't have the blockers

 

[MegaTon44]

Not knowing the villain, I would have to jam, as anything to the contrary is generally a poor long-term strategy. However, I have folded KK preflop to players I know who 4-5 bet preflop with only AA. But considering this scenario, I'm playing for stacks.

 

[bentax1978]

Not knowing player, I would have to jam, as anything to the contrary is generally a poor long-term strategy. However, I have folded KK preflop to players I know who 4-5 bet preflop with only AA. But considering this scenario, I'm playing for stacks.

That seems to be the general consensus, which I completely agree with in this situation.

That was really the reason I asked the question, because when the button folded and showed KK, the entire table (myself included) was very surprised he didn't jam. I thought it was a pretty straight forward play for him to jam with KK, but was wondering if perhaps folding was a more viable option than I had initially thought.

The next question was whether or not I should fold my QQ if the button jammed. I would have been getting about 4:1 to call, so it would have been a tough fold since that's almost the right odds to call with QQ vs AA/KK. If the button jams for $380 total, his range pretty much shrinks down to AA/KK, with a small possibility of AK (and a remote possibility of QQ/JJ/AQ). So at that point I'm getting about 4:1 to call, but my odds are likely no better than that to win the hand given his newly narrowed range.

 

[MegaTon44]

That seems to be the general consensus, which I completely agree with in this situation.

That was really the reason I asked the question, because when the button folded and showed KK, the entire table (myself included) was very surprised he didn't jam. I thought it was a pretty straight forward play for him to jam with KK, but was wondering if perhaps folding was a more viable option than I had initially thought.

The next question was whether or not I should fold my QQ if the button jammed. I would have been getting about 4:1 to call, so it would have been a tough fold since that's almost the right odds to call with QQ vs AA/KK. If the button jams for $380 total, his range pretty much shrinks down to AA/KK, with a small possibility of AK (and a remote possibility of QQ/JJ/AQ). So at that point I'm getting about 4:1 to call, but my odds are likely no better than that to win the hand given his newly narrowed range.

As for QQ facing a 5-6 bet jam, I may be in the minority here, but I'm generally not putting one more dollar in the pot. A losing hand is a losing hand.

 

[bentax1978]

As for QQ facing a 5-6 bet jam, I may be in the minority here, but I'm generally not putting one more dollar in the pot. A losing hand is a losing hand.

My intention when I made the $200 bet was to fold if he jammed. However, during the time he was thinking (about 2-3 minutes) that I started to wonder if his jam of $180 on top was really enough to make me fold, even if I knew with almost 100% certainty that he had AA/KK. I'm around 17-18% to win against AA or KK, so 4:1 pot odds is pretty damn close to the right odds anyway.


edit: I realize this doesn't take into account that a chunk of the money would be in a 3-way main pot with MP. I was pretty sure I was ahead of him, and since I pretty much have to hit a Q to make a set, the odds don't really change much.

 

[MegaTon44]

My intention when I made the $200 bet was to fold if he jammed. However, during the time he was thinking (about 2-3 minutes) that I started to wonder if his jam of $180 on top was really enough to make me fold, even if I knew with almost 100% certainty that he had AA/KK. I'm around 17-18% to win against AA or KK, so 4:1 pot odds is pretty damn close to the right odds anyway.

Fair point. Nice strat post. Congrats on the villainous win!

Edit: Assuming you felted MP. Did I miss that?

 

[Jimulacrum]

My intention when I made the $200 bet was to fold if he jammed. However, during the time he was thinking (about 2-3 minutes) that I started to wonder if his jam of $180 on top was really enough to make me fold, even if I knew with almost 100% certainty that he had AA/KK. I'm around 17-18% to win against AA or KK, so 4:1 pot odds is pretty damn close to the right odds anyway.


edit: I realize this doesn't take into account that a chunk of the money would be in a 3-way main pot with MP. I was pretty sure I was ahead of him, and since I pretty much have to hit a Q to make a set, the odds don't really change much.

Yeah, with stack sizes as they were, you put yourself in a kinda tough spot. If BTN jams, it's $180 for you to call, with $725 in the pot. If we assign BTN a range of strictly AA and KK, it's a fold (only getting ~4:1 as a ~4.6:1 shot), but it's close. If we add even one more hand to that range, it's a clear call.

 

[bentax1978]

Yeah, with stack sizes as they were, you put yourself in a kinda tough spot. If BTN jams, it's $180 for you to call, with $725 in the pot. If we assign BTN a range of strictly AA and KK, it's a fold (only getting ~4:1 as a ~4.6:1 shot), but it's close. If we add even one more hand to that range, it's a clear call.

It would have been a tough spot, no doubt. I can't say for certain what I would have actually done when pressed. If I think there's a chance he pushes with AK there, I suppose I can make the call. But without adding anything else to his range, it's a tough call to make given the numbers.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It would have been a tough spot, no doubt. I can't say for certain what I would have actually done when pressed. If I think there's a chance he pushes with AK there, I suppose I can make the call. But without adding anything else to his range, it's a tough call to make given the numbers.

Fortunately, because of how it played out and the fact that BTN showed, you can confidently snap-fold in this spot in the future because you know he has AA every time.

 

[bentax1978]

Fortunately, because of how it played out and the fact that BTN showed, you can confidently snap-fold in this spot in the future because you know he has AA every time.

BTN initially just showed the player to his right. But as soon as he did, another player demanded to see his hand. He then turned them over, but initially only one card flipped. I saw a K and was pretty sure he folded AK or KQ (because I didn't think he's fold KK). Then when the dealer flipped the other card, the table (and myself) were pretty surprised to say the least.

I obviously had to show because there was still a main pot to be decided.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Results on the main pot? We all know you probably flopped a set and then lost to a backdoor one-card flush or something, but we'd like to hear it from you.

 

[bentax1978]

Results on the main pot? We all know you probably flopped a set and then lost to a backdoor one-card flush or something, but we'd like to hear it from you.

Not much to tell about the main pot. I flipped my cards over, showed the QQ. The guy who folded KK gets up and is clearly pretty upset with himself. The rest of the table starts talking about how they can't believe he folded. In all the excitement, I honestly don't even recall exactly what the flop/turn/river was. I do recall there no A/K/Q on the board and that BTN would have won at showdown.

About an hour later (6 handed), I actually had another hand with the same two guys, which again ended badly for them.

This time I'm on the button with Qs9s. It was another $6 straddle hand, but this time from UTG. KKF (KK Folder) calls, then I called, and then both blinds, and UTG checks his straddle. So $30 in the pot.

Flop is 9d 5s 6s. I flopped top pair with a decent kicker and the flush draw.

SB check
BB (guy who lost didn't show in the last hand I talked about) bets $25 (had around $550 behind at this point)
UTG folds
KKF (KK Folder) calls the $25 (He had about $175 to start the hand)
Action is on me (button) and I make it $125 total (I had about $900 to start the hand).
SB folds
BB thinks for 10-15 seconds and folds shaking his head.
KKF pushes all in and I call the extra $50.

I turn over my cards, he doesn't. In hindsight I could have made him flip first since I called his all-in, but I didn't. BB (who I know very well and used to play with him weekly when i used to host) tells me he folded his (least) favorite hand. I asked "Jacks?", to which he nodded. There's some backstory here, but the short of it is he hates JJ because he think it's an unlucky hand for him. I say it's his least favorite hands because he always plays them poorly. but that's another story.

Of course as soon as he tells me that, the dealer puts out a Jack on the turn. LOL. River is a blank. KKF mucks, though I catch a glimpse of what looked like two small/medium club as he does. I'd guess he had something like 6c7c for a flush draw and gutshot, but I'm not 100% sure. So I managed to get the best hand (both at the time and at showdown) to fold on the flop and end up winning the main pot against the other guy.

KKF leaves, the table is down to 5, and 4 of us are a group (my old home game friends). Since we're going to dinner soon anyway, the floor finds the 5th guy a new seat and we headed out to dinner. It was a decent way (for me) to end the session.