Need help with top-up/rebuy rules for no-limit cash "friendly" game (1 Viewer)

[d0g]

Please help us settle a bit of a dispute ...

A little over a year ago, some buddies and I started playing a 'friendly' weekly no-limit cash Texas hold 'em game. 'Friendly' meaning it's a $20 buy in, and our BB is $0.20. Most of us (myself included), had hardly ever played poker before – but we've all grown to love the game.

The guy with the most experience established a rule from the beginning that you could not rebuy (which I understand is also called "top up"?) until your stack was down to less than $5.

Now, several times, a situation has developed where one player, maybe two, has gotten lucky and ended up with a stack of $120 or more – while everyone else has $10 or less. I have complained about this, because I feel that it throws off the balance in the betting, because this stack leader can basically push everyone else out any time he feels like it.

I told a friend with more experience about this, and he said we're doing it wrong – that you should be allowed to top up whenever you want (between hands of course) ideally up to whatever the stack leader has, OR at least to whatever the buy in is ($20 in our case.) And that we're mixing up cash & tournament rules. He also said the game is generally best when everyone has at least 100 BBs in their stack.

I proposed this, and many are griping, saying it's not fair to those who can't afford to top up that much; and that it eliminates the leader's advantage which he earned through skilluck.

I'd love to hear how groups with more experience do this – what's the best rules re top ups for friendlies?

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed!

 

[detroitdad]

My rules are as follows. You can top up to the max buy-in, or half the deep stack. If somebody doesn't like it. They can get the fuck, out it's my house.

 

[Mr Winberg]

At least this:

you should be allowed to top up whenever you want

to whatever the buy in is

Some here at PCF allow up whichever is higher of the max buy-in or half the largest stack.

Only allowing topping up when below $5 is not a good rule, it goes against the essence of a cash game. Why on earth would anyone not be allowed to top-up in a cash game? If I was down to $10 in that game, I would cash out, have a beer, then buy-in for $20. The opposite of going south! Going north?

 

[4SUMERZ]

At my home game, $0.25/$0.25 blinds and initial buy in of $20.00, one can top up to the original buy in at anytime between hands. If a stack is at $5.00 or less, you can add a full buy in of $20.00 for the rebuy.
It seems to work Ok, but you would be surprised that not many at the table rebuy unless they go broke...funny about that...I would think one would want as many chips as possible in case you get a "nuts" hand.

 

[d0g]

$0.25/$0.25 blinds

Do you mean .25/.50 ? Or am I missing something? Your rule sounds good to me.

 

[d0g]

Do you mean .25/.50 ? Or am I missing something? Your rule sounds good to me.

Oh, I just learned what a "straddle" is!

 

[detroitdad]

We play .25/.50, $100 max buy in. Top up anytime you want. Rebuy up to half the deep stack.

Circus games all the way!

 

[umbkcshah]

If people don't like that idea of matching the big stack, why not propose just playing with a $20 cap? Not a fan of this, but it can work. Eventually they might want to open up bigger rebuys.

Rebuy between hands as long as it doesn't get too 'disruptive' to the game. As far as amount, either $20, half big stack or big stack.

Not saying it should be like a casino, but to give an example, I get extra chips and top up if I've dropped $50 or so from my buyin, unless I'm the fish.

Regarding half/full big stack, this can potentially make the game too big, too fast and change folks attitudes

 

[d0g]

playing with a $20 cap?

What does "cap" mean exactly? Sorry, noob here.
Oh like not a no-limit game ? A limit on raises, right?

 

[umbkcshah]

What does "cap" mean exactly? Sorry, noob here.
Oh like not a no-limit game ? A limit on raises, right?

It's the most you can lose in one hand. So it limits the game size as only $20 (or whatever the cap is set at) can be lost by each player in the hand. Most common in Pot Limit Omaha I believe, but you can do it for Texas too. It's a little annoying to track. Not saying it's a great idea, but it has more merit the more casual your group. My friends and I still play a 25c game with $2 max raises (that's what the less serious like since they can drop $20 and play a bit)

The other way cap is used is Limit - which allows a max or 4 or 5 bets typically per street.

 

[4SUMERZ]

Do you mean .25/.50 ? Or am I missing something? Your rule sounds good to me.

You read it correctly. The blinds are $0.25/$0.25. No different than any other blinds except they are equal. With the bb at 0.25, it was difficult to split than in half for the sb.
Out starting stack has the $0.25 as the smallest denom.
$20.00 stack made up of 12-$0.25 chips
12- $1.00 chips
1 - $5.00 chip
I mostly use the $1.00 and $5.00 chips for the rebuys. Easier to count on the cash outs.

 

[Frogzilla]

First off there is no inherent advantage in being a big stack in a cash game.

I would, at minimum, always allow topping up to the max buy-in. At any point you can buy in up to $20. If someone insists on being at exactly $20 then easiest way to manage that is for them to buy-in extra and have reserve chips out of play they can top up with without disrupting you.

Also depending on how you want to manage the stakes, allowing bigger rebuys as night progresses is an option. A lot of times this will look like a “up to half the stack” kind of thing as mentioned above.

 

[4SUMERZ]

See below

 

[4SUMERZ]

Do you mean .25/.50 ? Or am I missing something? Your rule sounds good to me.

You read it correctly. The blinds are $0.25/$0.25. No different than any other blinds except they are equal. With the bb at 0.25, it was difficult to split than in half for the sb.
Out starting stack has the $0.25 as the smallest denom.
$20.00 stack made up of
12-$0.25 chips
12- $1.00 chips
1 - $5.00 chip
I mostly use the $1.00 and $5.00 chips for the rebuys. Easier to count on the cash outs

 

[Machine]

I proposed this, and many are griping, saying it's not fair to those who can't afford to top up that much; and that it eliminates the leader's advantage which he earned through skilluck.

I'd love to hear how groups with more experience do this – what's the best rules re top ups for friendlies?

So toping off, I do a variant of it.

Buy in is 80 bucks, and you can top off at say 40, so buy another 40. I also allow you to buy a full buy in once you're below 10 bucks.

in a friendly game, I would not allow buy ins 1/2 the big stack or match stack rebuys. I prefer a cap, it lends itself to better play over longer periods, rather than buying in for as much as you can, and then trapping or getting luck on a bad beat.

 

[ArielVer18]

I told a friend with more experience about this, and he said we're doing it wrong – that you should be allowed to top up whenever you want (between hands of course) ideally up to whatever the stack leader has, OR at least to whatever the buy in is ($20 in our case.)

This friend is right. Establish a buy-in range at the beginning of the game (for example minimum $5 maximum $20) and allow top up to anything within that range.

 

[Mr Winberg]

but you would be surprised that not many at the table rebuy unless they go broke...funny about that...I would think one would want as many chips as possible in case you get a "nuts" hand.

The thing is that it's easier to play with a shorter stack. The shorter the stack, the easier it is to play optimally. Someone here at PCF did a good write-up on it in some thread, with examples etc, but a good example is if you hit top pair in a rasied pot, with a shorter stack it might be pretty close to optimal to simply shove. With a really deep stack it gets more complicated. Short story, a less skilled player may benefit from a shorter stack.

But I'm with you! I may not be skilled, but I like deep poker. I enjoy the complex situations that arise, rather than just "shove on the flop".

 

[Jawnie]

If someones down to half a max buyin let em top up or even rebuy another max stack, whatevers easiest. Dont get in habit of doing lots of little topups over and over tho. Like said above stack sizes dont matter for cash unless too low. For friendly games its nice for everyone to have a stack infront of them that there happy with.

 

[Eriks]

First off there is no inherent advantage in being a big stack in a cash game.

This.

In fact, I would say the big stacks are at a disadvantage since I doubt they’re playing a strategy that fits facing a bunch of short stacks. The short stacks on the other hand can easily pick their spots and play much more profitable.

That said, short stack poker sucks. Cash games should be at least 200bbs deep imo

 

[LeLe]

My house rules for stake 50/$1 (Min 100, Max 200, Rebuy / top up to Half biggest stack)

These is mostly to keep the game more control and also give some protection to the big stack so they dont lost all their stack in 1 hand

 

[Rhodeman77]

The big stack has no advantage over a $5 stack. If he bets $20 preflop but everyone only has $5-$10 stacks then he actually only bet $10.

Players should always be able to rebuy up to at least the starting buy-in amount, and most home games allow for more than that.

 

[SteveEH]

As others have said there's no advantage for the big stack in cash games.

Also, allowing rebuys up to the big stack or half the big stack will give the one experienced player in your group a big advantage over all the n00bs.

 

[riverchaseNICK]

My game starts with a $500 max buy in. After that it's match stack at any time. If someone has $5k in front of them and you only have $600....match it at any point. Anyone that complains that that's not fair is free to leave and clearly doesn't like action lol

 

[upNdown]

First off there is no inherent advantage in being a big stack in a cash game.

I would, at minimum, always allow topping up to the max buy-in. At any point you can buy in up to $20. If someone insists on being at exactly $20 then easiest way to manage that is for them to buy-in extra and have reserve chips out of play they can top up with without disrupting you.

Also depending on how you want to manage the stakes, allowing bigger rebuys as night progresses is an option. A lot of times this will look like a “up to half the stack” kind of thing as mentioned above.

This is all the truth.
I'll add that there's no such thing as a friendly cash game. Especially if there are people who can't afford to keep buying more chips.
@d0g the cleanest solution is to play tournaments - everybody buys in for the same amount and when they're out of chips, they're out.
But there's no way to make a cash game fair and friendly to people who can't or won't rebuy when they get short. Except for putting weird restrictions on the buyins/rebuys which make it more of a cash game / tournament hybrid. And I'm not recommending that.

But I have a thought:

First off there is no inherent advantage in being a big stack in a cash game.

Maybe there is an advantage if you're playing in a cash game with a weirdo rule where you can't buy more chips until your stack gets down to 25% of starting stack? Hmm . . .

 

[DuckFat]

This is all the truth.
I'll add that there's no such thing as a friendly cash game. Especially if there are people who can't afford to keep buying more chips.
@d0g the cleanest solution is to play tournaments - everybody buys in for the same amount and when they're out of chips, they're out.
But there's no way to make a cash game fair and friendly to people who can't or won't rebuy when they get short. Except for putting weird restrictions on the buyins/rebuys which make it more of a cash game / tournament hybrid. And I'm not recommending that.

I can't see this game changing to a tournament, the people who can't afford a $20 top up will complain about losing a whole $20 when they don't make it in the money. Maybe change the stakes to losers take shots or do stupid dares... or bingo night.

 

[BamaT8ter]

My game starts with a $500 max buy in. After that it's match stack at any time. If someone has $5k in front of them and you only have $600....match it at any point. Anyone that complains that that's not fair is free to leave and clearly doesn't like action lol

Got any seats open in that game?

 

[riverchaseNICK]

Got any seats open in that game?

You live in Birmingham?

 

[BamaT8ter]

You live in Birmingham?

Gardendale

 

[BamaT8ter]

@AuburnSeth is local too.

 

[merkong]

The Godfather Club - .25/.25 $25 initial

Add an amount “equal to half the big stack”, anytime and regardless of your stack.

You have $72 and big stack is $100; add $50.

Not finished and want to add more. $25 (initial) increments. No limit. Add, add, add, and keep adding.

Mo money.

Rarely happens but it can if you want it to.