No Bet Line - Question About Verbal/Physical "Call" (1 Viewer)

[justsomedude]

In the tournament I hosted last week, I had a minor dispute that escalated into a bit of a situation, due to some miscues by multiple people (and some possible angle shooting). The table had a dedicated dealer (a player who went busto and decided to stay), and three or four players left. I'm not sure how all of the action went down before the dispute started, but the hand in question ended up with two players heads up. This is what happened...

After blinds posted and some moderate raises and a couple of folded hands (note, we were deep into the tourney at this point, and both of the guys described below had big stacks):

1. Player one goes all in. Point to note: my tables have a wood racetrack, but no "bet line." It's considered at my game nights, although not some steadfast rule, that moving chips from the racetrack to the felt is a betting action. Sometimes players will count out a smaller bet directly in front of their chips (on the felt), and then shove them further into the table and make their verbal bet. This is also allowed.
2. Player two starts moving/stacking his chips onto the felt, and simultaneously sighing and saying, "Okay." Another point: Player two is relatively new to my games, with this only being the third game he's attended. This point comes up later.
3. Dealer guy burns a card and starts dealing the flop.
4. Player two immediately starts yelling "Whoa whoa whoa - I never said call!"
5. Dealer stops with one flop card exposed, and two flop cards still face down.

This is when I'm called in to try and resolve the situation, and I am told the order of events as outlined above. No one disputes the events described.

Player 2 and his buddy (that he brought with him) immediately start arguing that a formal/verbal "call" was never made, and that the flop is invalid. I start explaining the "house rules" that chips moved from the racetrack to the felt constitute a bet, and that the hand plays as a call. Player 2 and his buddy pull the, "we're new here - and we didn't know that rule" card, and argue the face up Jack should be burned, and the hand restarted as if it were still pre-flop.

I told them I would not burn the Jack, but - trying to appease everyone (as tensions were now rising quickly) - would allow Player 2 to rescind his call if Player 1 allowed it, and that the Jack would play.

Player 2 pulled his chips off the felt. Pretended to go in the tank, and then ultimately folded. Everyone seemed OK with the outcome.

Anyway - I'm wondering if I handled this properly, and just looking for general advice. What would have happened in a casino (where often times there are NO bet lines)? What was the "proper" thing to do with the Jack? I mean, this all looks like some shitty angle shooting to me from the new guy, but I still would like to know the "right" way to have handled things, per the standard rules.

Thanks in advance!

 

[catalyzeme]

Saying "okay" and moving chips forward is for sure a call. I have no problem with letting him take it back the way you did and making it a learning experience though. New people at my table always get a bit of leeway with stuff like string betting or other rules they might not be familiar with if they haven't played at a casino before.


The one or two times we've had a card come out early, I've had the dealer shuffle it back into the deck.

If it was a real angleshoot, he would have waited until the whole flop was dealt to complain or shut up.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

First of all, the dealer should make sure that it is a call before he puts the flop if there is any doubt. Saying "okay" means nothing by itself, but moving chips forward would absolutely constitute a call, especially in conjunction with the "okay". Asking the other player if he is ok with the person folding opens up a whole new can of worms. I would have made the call stand, personally, and told the new guy to be more careful next time.

Also, player 2's buddy should have no say in what happens. And a prematurely turned card should never be burned, it should always be reshuffled into the deck. It really sounds like these guys were angle shooting, and I'd watch them carefully in the future.

Maybe put up a list of rules on the wall so that in the future this type of stuff doesn't happen again.

 

[PhilLaFond]

Might be helpful to go over the "house rules" with everyone before starting. I don't believe saying "okay" in and of itself is a call, but agree that combining it with moving chips forward certainly makes it such.
That being said, I thought your solution reasonable, especially for a friendly house game.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

"Any forward motion" end discussion.

 

[detroitdad]

as stated, the verbal statement of "okay" with the forward motion is a definite call imo. I'd make it stand. Jack would play. If he doesn't want to come back that would be fine.

 

[lnlver]

Regardless of whether you rule this a call or not, the chips the player put on the felt should stay there and be awarded to the winner of the hand. He should not be allowed to take them off the felt.

Also, the correct way to deal the flop is to peel off the top three cards, turn them over and reveal them in one swift motion. This is to avoid players getting information off individual cards as they are revealed. The entire flop should have been exposed, not just one card.

 

[Trihonda]

as stated, the verbal statement of "okay" with the forward motion is a definite call imo. I'd make it stand. Jack would play. If he doesn't want to come back that would be fine.

correct way to deal the flop is to peel off the top three cards, turn them over and reveal them in one swift motion. This is to avoid players getting information off individual cards as they are revealed. The entire flop should have been exposed, not just one card.

Yup and Yup

 

[BGinGA]

Player 2's verbal confirmation ('okay') combined with forward movement of chips constitutes a call - pretty much anywhere big-bet poker is played. Personally, I would not have ruled it any other way. Player 2's buddy should be asked to remain silent unless asked for his recollection of events.

Regarding the 'exposed' Jack on the flop:

• If Player 2's pre-flop action is ruled as a call, then the cards remain as dealt: the burn card, the Jack, and the other two flop cards all stand.
• If Player 2's pre-flop action is ruled as NOT a call, then all pre-flop action has not been completed, and the Jack was dealt prematurely. In that case:

• The premature cards dealt and exposed may not be used - there is no option to accept or reject the premature card(s).
• Action in the current betting round is completed, then the premature dealing error is corrected. In this specific case:

• Typically, all three board cards would be considered premature (because all three flop cards are exposed simultaneously), and requires that the flop be re-dealt after shuffling the prematurely exposed board cards back into the deck (including dealing a new burn card prior to the new flop).
• However, in this case, only one board card was exposed, and should be the only card considered to be premature. The dealer error should be rectified in the manner that least influences the identity of the board cards that would have been used if no dealer error had occurred:
  • The premature card (Jack) is set aside to be used later, and the dealer burns another card and adds what would have been the turn card to the two unexposed flop cards already dealt, and reveals the flop.
  • After completion of the flop betting, the dealer burns another card and exposes what would have been the river card as the turn card on the board.
  • After completion of the turn betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the prematurely exposed flop card (Jack) that was taken out of play, but not including any burn cards or mucked discards. The dealer then cuts the deck, burns a card, and deals the river card.

Proper dealer actions after Player 2's 'call':

1. Dealer announces "Player all-in and call". This formality makes it clear to everyone at the table the status of the current hand in play.
2. Dealer counts out the all-in bet and the call amount, and drags appropriate chips from both players into the pot (I understand that this may not always be done, but it is correct protocol and certainly prevents issues such as this from ever arising).
3. Dealer announces "Two players, one all-in" and raps the table, indicating he is about to continue with dealing.
4. Dealer burns the top card, deals the next three cards face down into a single pile, and then flips and exposes the three flop cards in one motion.

Note that any ONE of those first three actions would likely have kept the situation from escalating to the point where it did. Even following just #4 would likely have prevented a card from being exposed prematurely (assuming that player 2's action was not ruled as a call).

 

[lherron]

In a more casual/home game environment, intent is a big factor. Seemed like an honest mistake. Plus I like the standard of "release" when there's no clear betting line, so it's not 100% clear to me he called without having witnessed it. I would've given him the benefit of the doubt and burned the jack.

But if it's a big game, probably wouldn't have called it the same way. You've gotta be responsible for your actions.

 

[MeridianFC]

Player 2's verbal confirmation ('okay') combined with forward movement of chips constitutes a call - pretty much anywhere big-bet poker is played. Personally, I would not have ruled it any other way. Player 2's buddy should be asked to remain silent unless asked for his recollection of events.

[SNIP]

1. Dealer announces "Player all-in and call". This formality makes it clear to everyone at the table the status of the current hand in play.
2. Dealer counts out the all-in bet and the call amount, and drags appropriate chips from both players into the pot (I understand that this may not always be done, but it is correct protocol and certainly prevents issues such as this from ever arising).
3. Dealer announces "Two players, one all-in" and raps the table, indicating he is about to continue with dealing.
4. Dealer burns the top card, deals the next three cards face down into a single pile, and then flips and exposes the three flop cards in one motion.

[SNIP]

Everyone should just get a tattoo of this.

 

[justsomedude]

Thanks for the help everyone. Looks like a f*cked it up a bit per the formal rules. Good to know. And thanks for the details rules post @BGinGA ... I need to memorize this.

My "on the fly" handling of the situation appeased all parties involved, but I'd prefer to be correct per the rules in the future.

Thanks everyone!! #awesomethread

 

[detroitdad]

Thanks for the help everyone. Looks like a f*cked it up a bit per the formal rules. Good to know. And thanks for the details rules post @BGinGA ... I need to memorize this.

My "on the fly" handling of the situation appeased all parties involved, but I'd prefer to be correct per the rules in the future.

Thanks everyone!! #awesomePCFforum

fyp

 

[justsomedude]

I should probably add... Player 2 ("not call") and his buddy ended up taking 1st and 2nd (respectively) in the tournament.

f*ckers.

 

[Poker Zombie]

One quick correction to @BGinGA's rules interpretation:

TDA rules 2015, Rule RP-5
For a premature flop, the flop burncard is left in place as the burn. The premature flop board cards are returned to the deck stub and reshuffled. The flop is then re-dealt (without another burn card) from the newly shuffled stub.

There's no need for the rest of that hoopla. Put the exposed card back in the deck, finish actions, shuffle the deck, and deal flop.

I hope I got this revision out before @MeridianFC got his tattoo.

 

[BGinGA]

What hoopla? Deal like normal, retaining the integrity of the intended board cards - better than reshuffling for no reason. As i stated, only reason to shuffle is if the entire flop was exposed, not just one card. Doesn't TDA treat premature turn or river the same way?


And his tattoo was of the proper dealer actions/announcements, not the treatment of exposed cards....

 

[BGinGA]

duplicate

 

[Poker Zombie]

Yes - premature turn:
A premature turn card is put to the side. Another card is burnt, and the normal river card is used as the new turn card. After action on the turn, the premature turn card is placed back in the stub, the stub is reshuffled and a river card is dealt without an additional burn.

Premature river:
A premature river card is placed back into the remaining stub, and the premature river burn card is left in place as the river burn. Once action on the turn is completed, the stub is reshuffled and the river is dealt without a new burn card.

"integrity" is not preserved in the case of an premature flop, because you are taking a known card off the board for 60% of the community cards which could be significant information for the player(s) that have not yet acted.

 

[Poker Zombie]

And his tattoo was of the proper dealer actions/announcements, not the treatment of exposed cards....

In that case, get back to inking...

 

[BGinGA]

Yes - premature turn:
A premature turn card is put to the side. Another card is burnt, and the normal river card is used as the new turn card. After action on the turn, the premature turn card is placed back in the stub, the stub is reshuffled and a river card is dealt without an additional burn.

Premature river:
A premature river card is placed back into the remaining stub, and the premature river burn card is left in place as the river burn. Once action on the turn is completed, the stub is reshuffled and the river is dealt without a new burn card.

"integrity" is not preserved in the case of an premature flop, because you are taking a known card off the board for 60% of the community cards which could be significant information for the player(s) that have not yet acted.

Yes, but all of the other board cards (80%) will be unaltered from the original intended deal. And the remaining 20% (the exposed card) still has a chance to appear on the river. This "intended deal integrity" seems more important, and is the crux of the 'exposed turn' rule. Otherwise, the 'turn' rule would be to just shuffle it back in and re-deal the turn (and also now altering the river card as well). It is in the best interest of the game to follow that same idea for a single exposed flop card. (ha, i love that clause....)

When only one flop card is accidentally exposed (which should really never happen in the first place), it is essentially the same as an exposed turn card. And when all three flop cards are exposed (more common, when it happens at all), it more closely follows the 'exposed river' rule, simply because there aren't three virtual replacements left in the board (only two other cards to deal).

 

[Poker Zombie]

I (and apparently the majority of the TDA) thinks knowledge of a single card being taken out of the most important part of the game (the flop) is more important than "deck integrity".

I don't make the rules here, I'm just trying to give accurate information as per the TDA, not what I would prefer the rule to be.

 

[BGinGA]

TDA rules 2015, Rule RP-5
For a premature flop, the flop burncard is left in place as the burn. The premature flop board cards are returned to the deck stub and reshuffled. The flop is then re-dealt (without another burn card) from the newly shuffled stub.

There's no need for the rest of that hoopla. Put the exposed card back in the deck, finish actions, shuffle the deck, and deal flop.

I (and apparently the majority of the TDA) thinks knowledge of a single card being taken out of the most important part of the game (the flop) is more important than "deck integrity".

I think you are missing the point that the TDA rules address a prematurely-exposed flop (three cards), not an exposed single-card of the three flop cards. If proper dealer procedure is followed, a single-exposed flop card never happens. That's why how to handle the OP's specific case example is subject to debate.

To follow the TDA rule to the letter would require that all three flop cards (not just the lone single exposed card) get reshuffled back into the deck and re-dealt. A better solution (within the structure of the rules) is available to the tournament director.