Dumb question about a raise or call. (3 Viewers)

[Racer96]

In a game with $3bb, the initial bet post flop is not $3 unless the player actually bets $3. It can be any amount above $3.

Since you are getting technical over terms:
Pre flop. Actions are either "fold" , "call" , or "raise"
Original post says "$1/3 game. Players raises to $6"
That means the player has made a raise, to a total of $6.

A raise to $6 preflop is a raise of $3. A bet of $6 postflop is a raise of $6.

Post flop. Initial actions are either "check" or "bet". The initial action IS NOT "raise".
Thus, if it's post flop, and it's a RAISE , it can only have been that there was an initial bet of $3, and the player is raising to $6.

A bet of $6 is not a raise of $6. It's a bet.


And fwiw, my initial thoughts on the whole matter was that it was a raise, but after thinking about it, and then reading more of the thread, I would agree with the position that it is just a call. With those specific two chips, you can not make a call, by removing 1 chip. Now, had the player put in a $5 and 5x$1 chips, without saying anything (because they somehow misread the bet or whatever), it would be a raise.

Mike

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

A bet of $6 postflop is a raise of $6.

What? No it is not. It is a bet of $6. The initial action is the bet not a raise. Do people in your game actually lead out post flop by saying I raise $6 instead of I bet $6.

 

[MrRossKeys]

Since you are getting technical over terms:

Let me stop you right there. It is actually the opposite. The terms aren't relevant. Bet of $6, raise of $6, it doesn't matter. What matters is the difference. In 1/3 a raise to 6 is an increase of $3. Another bet of $10 is an increase of $4, hence legal raise.

Post flop, a bet of $6 is an increase from $0 to $6. The next legal raise is another increase of at least $6.

I'm trying to simplify the math, not convolute the terminology. My apologies if my terms aren't correct.. because the terms aren't what I'm debating.

 

[Racer96]

Let me stop you right there. It is actually the opposite. The terms aren't relevant. Bet of $6, raise of $6, it doesn't matter. What matters is the difference. In 1/3 a raise to 6 is an increase of $3. Another bet of $10 is an increase of $4, hence legal raise.

Post flop, a bet of $6 is an increase from $0 to $6. The next legal raise is another increase of at least $6.

I'm trying to simplify the math, not convolute the terminology. My apologies if my terms aren't correct.. because the terms aren't what I'm debating.

The original poster said a raise to $6. Not a bet of $6. In order to raise to $6 when the minimum amount of a bet is $3, automatically makes the raise be a value of $3.

It was not a bet of $6. It was a raise to $6. Just because you don't understand the terminology, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

 

[MrRossKeys]

The original poster said a raise to $6. Not a bet of $6. In order to raise to $6 when the minimum amount of a bet is $3, automatically makes the raise be a value of $3.

It was not a bet of $6. It was a raise to $6. Just because you don't understand the terminology, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

Hmm. I totally agree with you about the raise to $6. I understand the terminology. The terminology I used in the response you quoted isn't relevant to the actual rule I am referencing, which I tried to clear up in my recent post.

I don't understand how we're saying the same thing but coming up with different results. If it is a raise to $6 from $3, then a $10 two chip bet is a legal raise. Yet you're saying it is a call. Where are we missing each other?

 

[Racer96]

I don't understand how we're saying the same thing but coming up with different results. If it is a raise to $6 from $3, then a $10 two chip bet is a legal raise. Yet you're saying it is a call. Where are we missing each other?

The rule you are referencing, is that a single oversized (meaning over value, not physical size) chip, without verbal declaration is deemed just a call, not a raise.

The rule that some others are referencing, is that a bet that is made that you CAN NOT remove any of the chips from that turns that the total amount into a value lower* than a call, is just a call.

ie. a bet of $40 is the current action, if a player throws in a $25 and 5 x $5 without declaring anything, is just a call. Even though it's not a "single chip", it's still just a call. The caller will remove 2 x $5 chips.

HOWEVER, if a bet of $40 is made, and the next player throws in $25 and 7 x $5 chips, now with the 50% rule, (total bet now is $60, some casinos will enforce a raise, since the amount was 50%, and make the player commit to $80 total, no more, no less. Some casinos though, if it is exactly 50% will ask the player if they meant to raise or call, I have seen both judgements made)

*stealth edit, sorry, I initially wrote higher.

 

[LotsOfChips]

A bet of $6 postflop is a raise of $6

No, it's a bet, not a raise. The only way it would be a raise would be if someone previously bet the minimum ($3) and then someone min raised to $6.

Your whole argument about differences from pre to post flop is based on an incorrect understanding of the word "raise". You can't raise unless someone has bet first.

 

[BGinGA]

Biggest difference between the two arguments?

re: 1/3 game, $3 bet, min-raise to $6, two $5 chips then tossed in with no verbalization:

One side says a multiple-chip raise to $10 is a legal raise amount (it is), but the other side says but it's only a legal raise if one of the chips can be removed and still have the remaining chips total more than the call amount (aka the TDA rule).

Both sides agree that a $10 multiple-chip wager consisting of ten $1 chips or five $1 chips plus a $5 chip would be a legal raise even if unannounced. It's only the two-chip wager that is under scrutiny.

Using today's 'standard' rules, it's a call. In some casinos, some home games, and in online games (where the number of chips is irrelevant), it's a raise.

 

[Natskule]

The betting rules ARE the same pre and post. It's just that the starting bets pre and post are NOT the same.

See my statement above. It's not about the final dollar amount of the bet... it is about the total dollar amount of the previous raise. Postflop that dollar amount is equal to the previous bet... preflop that dollar amount doesn't have to be equal to the previous bet because there were already bets (or raises) before.

Just keep it simple, a raise has to be equal to or greater than the previous bet or raise. That's it.

 

[drdr]

Biggest difference between the two arguments?

re: 1/3 game, $3 bet, min-raise to $6, two $5 chips then tossed in with no verbalization:

One side says a multiple-chip raise to $10 is a legal raise amount (it is), but the other side says but it's only a legal raise if one of the chips can be removed and still have the remaining chips total more than the call amount (aka the TDA rule).

Both sides agree that a $10 multiple-chip wager consisting of ten $1 chips or five $1 chips plus a $5 chip would be a legal raise even if unannounced. It's only the two-chip wager that is under scrutiny.

Using today's 'standard' rules, it's a call. In some casinos, some home games, and in online games (where the number of chips is irrelevant), it's a raise.

Good summary to clear the weeds.

 

[JustinInMN]

I would think it's a straight up raise.

Did he have any smaller chips? If yes then raise. If no then call.

Actually the rules that govern this are designed to be consistent regardless of the content of a player's stack.

 

[MrRossKeys]

No, it's a bet, not a raise. The only way it would be a raise would be if someone previously bet the minimum ($3) and then someone min raised to $6.

Your whole argument about differences from pre to post flop is based on an incorrect understanding of the word "raise". You can't raise unless someone has bet first.

I used the wrong terminology to try to explain my point, but my point is still the same. I understand the difference between a bet and a raise. I tried to correct it in the following post by saying "increase" instead of raise but...... oh well.

 

[AcesUp907]

Like most of us in here I was quick to say it’s a raise but I’ve been doing a lot of thinking and reading about this topic. Let me settle it for everyone. I ended up reaching out to a poker supervisor from a casino. Let’s be clear that chip stack composition absolutely doesn’t matter when making a call or raise.

In the scenario $1/3 NLH, $1sb, $3bb, player raises to $6, next player pushes 2 $5 chips into the middle.

Same as..

Player bets $40, next player raises to $120, next player pushes 2 $100 chips in the middle.

If the player calling puts an amount that can be construed as a call or a raise it must be announced as a raise for it to count, otherwise it’s just a call. So the 2 chips going in doesn’t automatically make it a raise if they are the same $ value and enough for a raise but singularly not enough for a call.

Put yourself in the situation of the person who has to call the $6 bet, you toss in 2 red chips for the call. Imagine now the dealer trying to tell you that you wanted to raise. It’s crazy to think about. You don’t have to announce call in this situation.

 

[jayfiggy]

$1/3 game.

Players raises to $6

Next player puts 2 $5 chips in without saying anything.

Call or raise?

I say raise because it’s not 1 chip and it’s enough for a legit raise.

What is the correct ruling?

At the 2 card rooms I play at, you must declare raise when putting any amount that is not obviously a raise. So a $25 chip is a call unless announced as a raise, same way with 2 $5 chips on a $6 bet.

 

[AutoDonk5000]

He should have said call, then put out two $5 chips.

The dealer should have clarified he meant to raise.

Absent both, it's a raise to $10. In a friendly home game, I allow it as a call, but explain why it's ambiguous so it's hopefully avoided in the future.