RyGuy
High Hand
This makes sense to me as well. They all make sense even when they're conflicting, lol!
Cash Game Is this a call or a raise? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter RyGuy
- Start date
The one oversized chip, barring any additional movement or verbalization, is independent of existing chips. I highly recommend you read the TDA rules. They are pretty accessible and thorough. You said you're a proud stickler
yeah. sorry. thats what I was trying to say. no matter what you have in front of you already, if you add one chip to the pot, its a call.
I am very familiar with this rule, because it stirred up some commotion in our room one night. The boss almost broke our last short handed game during grave shift one night. haha. I heard about it the following day and then we all had to discuss the rule to get on the same page.
In our 2/5 game the big blind was facing a $25 bet. The big blind takes one $100 chip out of his stack, then with the same hand, moves forward to pick up his big blind so now two chips are in his hand at the same time. Then he tosses both chips forward at the same time, a hundo and a fiver. The dealer says call. The guy says what are you talking about I just threw in two chips. lol. Floor comes over and he says call. literally everyone at the table said that is dumb. buts its the rule.
In our 2/5 game the big blind was facing a $25 bet. The big blind takes one $100 chip out of his stack, then with the same hand, moves forward to pick up his big blind so now two chips are in his hand at the same time. Then he tosses both chips forward at the same time, a hundo and a fiver. The dealer says call. The guy says what are you talking about I just threw in two chips. lol. Floor comes over and he says call. literally everyone at the table said that is dumb. buts its the rule.
So starting with the OP scenario of the BB having his 50¢ blind out (which is 2 x 25¢, since the stakes are .25/.50) facing a raise to $2.50, if he just throws a $5 chip on top of his blinds or if he pulls back both quarters before putting out the $5 chip, then it's a call. If he takes back one quarter and leaves the other and throws out a $5 chip on top, then it's a raise to $5.25?
Dumb indeed.
Which is exactly why I rule it as a raise in every event where I'm TD, even if using TDA rules... "in the best interest of the game and fairness."
Interesting, it is ambiguous because the player picks up the existing chip but does not technically pull it back (unless picking up the chips counts as pulling it back) and then throws out both chips in his hand. I'd be inclined to call it a raise and I think I've seen similar situations at casinos determine that to be a raise (or rather everyone at the table assumed it was, no judgement call involved).
He's making a distinguishing action different from tossing the $100 on top of his big blind without picking it up first. Why else pick up the blind chips and then throw them out together?
Jimulacrum
Full House
Your assessment of the rule is correct.
I disagree with this rule because it's too complicated and is bound to confuse players.
It's quite reasonable for a player to believe that putting forward the $5 with the two $0.25 chips constitutes a raise, since putting forward multiple chips that total a legal raise is generally a raise, and to speak of this scenario as a "single oversized chip" is not really true. Holding a player who intended to raise to just making a call sucks.
Very few players will internalize or even really understand this rule.
Always clarify.
Cash game
Non-sarcastic - I absolutely love your prescriptivism here, there is a rule set and it applies.
Sarcasm on - What does the TDA stand for again?
I don't play many tournaments and as such I prefer other rule sets for cash, but I would use the TDA to supplement and or explain a rule. With the exception of rule 46...
Rule 46 is asinine, and utterly a flaming bag of cow shit, it is why I wouldn't trust the TDA rule set.
The opposite is also true, there are rules that I agree with that don't appear in other texts, but the TDA will not be the cannon for any of my cash games.
you do you! haha. but in a casino, we kind of have to follow the rules, dumb or not. Because if you start letting little things like that slide, word spreads that the games aren't protected.
he didn't pull the bb back. just picked it up with the hundo and continued forward with both chips.
dmoney
Full House
this is what I miss about working in a cardroom, just arguing over rules for waaay too long just to kill time.
yeah. tbh, if I was the dealer, I probably would have called it a raise without thinking twice. Because before this happened and before it was really explained to me, I wouldn't have thought much about it and just said, Efff it, two chips is a raise.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Raise to $5.50. He is not required to announce his action (but risks another interpretation if he doesn't). Agree that in a home game, I would ask him to clarify.
I understand the one-chip rule. Making the one chip rule include one chip on top of posted blinds only introduces unnecessary ambiguity into what is otherwise a pretty clear, bright line rule.
I understand the one-chip rule. Making the one chip rule include one chip on top of posted blinds only introduces unnecessary ambiguity into what is otherwise a pretty clear, bright line rule.
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Off Topic: Every time I see your profile picture I swear I think you're the OP.
wickedwonka121
Flush
I couldn't get through all the posts. I keep seeing the idea of raising without being verbal. Let's say a player can't speak. Does he signal with his hand it's a raise like pointing up or thumbs up or something? Or even two fingers like double the bet. Idk.
Sounds like there is an opportunity here for a new standard. Like if you double tap with the big chip it means call or raise, whatever is decided. Idk.
I just say the amount to avoid confusion. Usually if a dealer asks the player to clarify I can get info from their response. Does he say raise with confidence or barely squeeze it out because he scared? I don't say raise, just the amount. So say the least amount of words to get the job done. In this case I would drop the big chip and say "five". Keep poker facing, and don't show a tell.
Edit: to answer the question lol. In my game, dropping a chip without saying raise is a call, regardless of what's in front of that player, sb, bb, doesn't matter. We keep "big chip rule" simple. In most cases my players get change from their neighbor during their turn and use exact change.
Sounds like there is an opportunity here for a new standard. Like if you double tap with the big chip it means call or raise, whatever is decided. Idk.
I just say the amount to avoid confusion. Usually if a dealer asks the player to clarify I can get info from their response. Does he say raise with confidence or barely squeeze it out because he scared? I don't say raise, just the amount. So say the least amount of words to get the job done. In this case I would drop the big chip and say "five". Keep poker facing, and don't show a tell.
Edit: to answer the question lol. In my game, dropping a chip without saying raise is a call, regardless of what's in front of that player, sb, bb, doesn't matter. We keep "big chip rule" simple. In most cases my players get change from their neighbor during their turn and use exact change.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Off Topic: Every time I see your profile picture I swear I think you're the OP.
I've always understood the oversized chip rule to be independent of all other chips the player already has on the betting line or in front of them. The intention of the rule seems to be to remove ambiguity of action in the absence of a verbal confirmation of intent. It not only is supposed to simplify the ruling of calling vs raising, but also to eliminate the possibility of angling in those moments.
For a single table home game, you've got a lot more room to navigate intentions, and generally the players are known to each other. But there's something to be said for the dealer to be able to manage these types of questions without calling the TD over for a ruling.
For my part, I'd rule it a call. Or at most I'm asking for clarification and asking for declarations in the future to limit the issue
For a single table home game, you've got a lot more room to navigate intentions, and generally the players are known to each other. But there's something to be said for the dealer to be able to manage these types of questions without calling the TD over for a ruling.
For my part, I'd rule it a call. Or at most I'm asking for clarification and asking for declarations in the future to limit the issue
dmoney
Full House
I would expand my interpretation of "verbal" to "signal intent somehow." In all cases, I'd try to be consistent while accommodating to that specific player's adaptive need.
I am assuming there are no 'house rules' in effect that would change the validity of the action.
With no verbal backup or clarification, I'd say it's a call. But I think dealer should ask for a clarification. If I was UTG, I would.
With no verbal backup or clarification, I'd say it's a call. But I think dealer should ask for a clarification. If I was UTG, I would.
ChipFinderSK
Full House
I’ll go back and read everyone’s responses (and the OP again), but I’m confused as to how it’s not a raise 100% of the time…the one chip rule only applies if you throw in “one chip” without verbalizing a raise.
Here, the person used 2 chips, and there is no question of whether he doubled the bet or not.
Here, the person used 2 chips, and there is no question of whether he doubled the bet or not.
ChipFinderSK
Full House
Ok, reread the OP and I missed that he had his BB out already. I’m switching my vote to call. And telling this person to just verbalize “raise” next time
If the situation is exactly as OP described, I'd rule it a fold. Get that almost-minraise bullshit outta here, we don't have time for it, teach him now.
By hard and fast rules I'd consider it a call. At any home game I'd just ask what they wanted to do though. I might have to start being a stickler though, at least a few times a night every time I host someone's trying to raise with 1 chip without saying anything.
LotsOfChips
Flush
The examples section of TDA confirms the Call idea:
Rule 46: Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In, situation examples.
Situation 1: If prior chips don’t cover the call AND are left alone. Ex: THE 25-50, the BB posts two 25’s, button raises to 600 total (550 more to BB).
1: Adding an overchip is a call (drop a 1k chip onto the two 25’s).
2: Adding multiple new chips is a call if all new chips are needed to call a) drop two 500’s onto the two 25’s or b) drop a 100 and 500 chip onto the two 25’s. In these two examples all new chips when combined with the prior chips are needed to make the call.
3: Adding multiple new chips is a Rule 45 multiple chip bet if one of the smallest new chips is not needed to make the call (drop a 1k and 500 chip onto the two 25’s is a total bet of 1550). Per Rule 45, a silent multi-chip bet is a raise if it hits the 50% threshold; otherwise it is a call.
But again, the OP is in a cash game, so RROP may apply. RROP #15 is a bit ambiguous, as it doesn't differentiate between adding to an already existing bet amount (BB) or facing action with no chips already committed to the pot: But the wording also seems to result in a Call
#15 : If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called.
I much prefer Cooke's Rules of Real Poker, it has some verbiage with regards to single chip also stating single chip call, but highlights a different issue, if it is the last of the player's chips, it could stand as a raise.
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ArielVer18
Flush
Didn't read anyone's reply. Frankly, this forum is more about poker chips than poker rules.
In a lot of non-American card rooms, to avoid this exact ambiguity, there is a rule that says you are not allowed to pull back chips after putting in new chips. Unfortunately, this didn't get traction in America because it's a very common player habit to first put chips in, then pull back old chips.
TDA has Rule 46 that covers your scenario. It is 100% a call. If BB want to silently raise to $5.50, BB should pull back the two 25¢ chips first, then put in a $5 and two 25¢ chips.
In a lot of non-American card rooms, to avoid this exact ambiguity, there is a rule that says you are not allowed to pull back chips after putting in new chips. Unfortunately, this didn't get traction in America because it's a very common player habit to first put chips in, then pull back old chips.
TDA has Rule 46 that covers your scenario. It is 100% a call. If BB want to silently raise to $5.50, BB should pull back the two 25¢ chips first, then put in a $5 and two 25¢ chips.
100% agree, if it was a tournament ran by the TDA.
ArielVer18
Flush
That's weird. Big Blind did everything right (except not verbalize, of course). Picking up the $5 commits him to a call or raise. Then he releases two chips, so oversized chip rule doesn't even apply. Is it possible the dealer didn't see Big Blind pick up the $5 and thought he simply threw out one oversized $100 chip?
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