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Dumb question about a raise or call. (1 Viewer)

upNdown said:
Such an under utilized move. I do it all the time. It should speed things up. - you can go now; no need to wait for the other chips because they're on their way. And yet, people wait for me to finish.
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I have seen rookie dealers do this. If you say call they sit and watch to make sure you called for the correct amount. It's completely unnecessary to hold up the action once a player says call. More experienced dealers just quickly verify you have called for the correct amount once they rake the chips in.
 
BGinGA said:
It's a crazy misguided rule.

Scenario: A bets $2 bet, B raises $4 to $6 total, C tosses out two $5 chips (totaling $10, a legal re-raise amount of $4 more).

• if C first says 'call', it's a call
• if C first says 'raise', it's a raise
• if C remains silent, it's a call... wait, wat?

That last one seems nuts to me. C put in a legal raise amount, and it should not matter if it consisted of ten $1 chips, two $5 chips, or a $5 chip and five $1s. It's still a multiple-chip bet totaling a legal raise amount.

The TDA gang got this one wrong, imo.... mostly because there is no need for their rule in the first place.
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I guess I don’t understand how you can be for the single over chip rule, but not this rule. They are basically the same to me.

If you have put out the minimum number of chips to make a call, it’s a call.
- it doesn’t matter what’s in your stack it’s what you put out.
- if you need the smallest chip to get the total over the call amount, it’s a call.
- if you only put out 1 chip it’s always needed so it’s always a call.

Worst case scenario you can take the smallest chip away and still make the call, it’s now a raise and you have to work out if it is more or less than half of the minimum raise, and given we can’t agree what the min raise is, all hope is lost.
 
upNdown said:
Nobody needs to hear the profanities I verbalize when playing online

Such an under utilized move. I do it all the time. It should speed things up. - you can go now; no need to wait for the other chips because they're on their way. And yet, people wait for me to finish.
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I agree and literally do this EVERY time. Sometimes I say “call,” other times I don’t, but every single call for me starts with one chip and ends with me completing the correct amount before the rest of the table action is completed. Makes the game faster.

My bets and raises are a stack of chips all hitting the felt together. My calls are one chip hitting first before completing the call. My actions are consistent and easy to understand.
 
No one in the games I ever play in would do this to make a call.

There may be some stupid rule somewhere that says this is technically a call but if we’re gonna be successful in getting players to understand and adhere to the one-chip rule, then this seemingly contradictory bs can’t coexist.
 
Eriks said:
No one in the games I ever play in would do this to make a call.

There may be some stupid rule somewhere that says this is technically a call but if we’re gonna be successful in getting players to understand and adhere to the one-chip rule, then this seemingly contradictory bs can’t coexist.
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Agree with the first sentence; the ONLY time somebody throws in two $5 chips to make a $6 call in our games will also include some verbalization, such as "call", "I need change", "I have no $1s", or something similar. Silence always infers that a tossed-in legal raise amount is just that, a raise.

The one-chip rule is totally different, and exists for different circumstances and for different reasons. Making a multiple chip bet/raise is not the same thing at all.
 
I'm convinced everyone who absolutely hates it is purposefully being obtuse. If it was that different it wouldn't be the same rule nor could the same rule apply. Y'all are free to run your home games however you want, but 95% of this thread has been irrelevant to the actual question of what the correct rule is. I am unfollowing this thread and it has devolved pretty far into head up assery. Feel free to DM me if you actually want to discuss the rules.
 
glynn said:
It's the same personalities in every rules thread on PCF. We could make a bingo drinking game and get absolutely obliterated thanks to two or three posters.
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And it’s the same 2-3 people complaining about the 2-3 rules posters…….

It looks like discussion to me. It will lead to “it’s your game, use your rules” and it’s not different in casinos- every one has some wonky house rule or uneducated TD that flys in the face of some rule book somewhere.
 
frustrated the big lebowski GIF
 
Pokerdweebz said:
I'm convinced everyone who absolutely hates it is purposefully being obtuse. If it was that different it wouldn't be the same rule nor could the same rule apply. Y'all are free to run your home games however you want, but 95% of this thread has been irrelevant to the actual question of what the correct rule is. I am unfollowing this thread and it has devolved pretty far into head up assery. Feel free to DM me if you actually want to discuss the rules.
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It comes down to finding out you have been doing something wrong in your "perfect" game. Of course there will be "head up assery" when you post a rule (now from 3 different sources) that prove the "it's a raise" crowd is wrong.

It almost makes me worried about the high-end angle-shooting that could transpire at the next PCF meet-up. Then I find myself at peace again, once I realize every raise at a meet-up is preceded by a "potmutherfucker" ;)
 
In the end, I guess it doesn't really matter to me. If I did it, I would verbalize my intentions to make it clear and if I was in the hand I would ask if it was a call or a raise.
 
With the exception of deaf / mute people, or people who have lost their tongues in accidents or in combat, I would DEMAND a verbal declaration of what they 're doing.:rolleyes:
 
bigdonkey said:
Schrodinger's bet - it is both a call and a raise until observation of a verbal declaration.
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So... exactly the same as saying "I see your bet and raise..."

The rule must be in place to prevent the angle-shoot. "You did not declare, so that is just a call" is simple and clarifies the rule going forward. If they don't like it, we have 3 sources in this thread that states otherwise. If a home game had published "house rules" that declared it a raise, I would accept those over Cooke's, Robert's, or TDA. I would also accept "that is how we always do it", but would cash out and leave. If you play by imaginary rules, I cant risk getting into any big pots.
 
Poker Zombie said:
So... exactly the same as saying "I see your bet and raise..."

The rule must be in place to prevent the angle-shoot. "You did not declare, so that is just a call" is simple and clarifies the rule going forward. If they don't like it, we have 3 sources in this thread that states otherwise. If a home game had published "house rules" that declared it a raise, I would accept those over Cooke's, Robert's, or TDA. I would also accept "that is how we always do it", but would cash out and leave. If you play by imaginary rules, I cant risk getting into any big pots.
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It was just a joke. My point is verbalize the action so there is no doubt.

I wouldn't call it exactly the same. Tossing out two chips could be intended as a call or raise. But as soon as one says, "i see your bet," their action is closed. "And raise," is meaningless.

I agree with the rule(s) as written. I see it as akin to the oversize chip rule. If two actions are possible, default to the least aggressive.
 
Am I the only person here who believes (based on ALL of the rules shared in this thread + my previous knowledge/experience) that the reason there is so much back-and-forth on this topic is because the answer to the original question is "it depends whether it's pre or post flop?"

I've mentioned it here a couple times, but no one has directly responded to it. Others have said what I have said on both sides (call/raise), but isn't there a piece of information that easily determines the answer to this question?

A raise in NLHE by definition is not "at least double the amount of the last completed bet." If it were, the answer to the original question would easily be "Call," because two $5 chips produces an amount less than double the last bet of $6 (required minimum raise of $12 or more, and at least two chips if not announcing a raise verbally).

A raise by definition is "at least the amount of the last raise amount." This means that a blind level of $1/$3 could see a raise to $6 (which is a raise amount of $3) and another raise amount of $4 to $10, and all of that be legally achieved without any player saying a word to another player or the dealer. As long as the raise to $10 happens with more than 1 chip, it is in fact a legal raise and doesn't need to be verbalized.

The only people here that don't agree that two $5 chips constitutes a raise (in this specific preflop situation) either:
1. Don't know the real rules
2. Know the rules and don't like the rules, hence personal house rule overruling, or
3. Know the rules and are trolling in this thread.

Everyone who says "why not just ask what the player meant" are absolutely correct, because most players don't know that you can raise smaller than double the last completed bet and it be legal.

The rules are the rules, and to me the rules are clear... but what is hardly ever clear is the intention of your players and whether they even understand the rules... so honestly, who cares!!!??? As long as the host is consistent, then it doesn't even matter in the long run. Make your players double the last bet preflop... fine... just do it every time. Or, let players min-raise like the rule says they can... fine...

But once again, those here who are adamant about those two $5 chips are a call really are way way WAY wrong (in this particular example).
 
MrRossKeys said:
Am I the only person here who believes (based on ALL of the rules shared in this thread + my previous knowledge/experience) that the reason there is so much back-and-forth on this topic is because the answer to the original question is "it depends whether it's pre or post flop?"
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Well, they do say a player raises to $6, and in a game with a $3bb the only way to do that is from an initial bet of $3 regardless of whether it's pre or post flop.
 
lol, now when we go to a casino we should have a list of issues for them to clarify according during to their rules before buying into a game.

Dealer: “Seat Open!”
PCF’er: “I’ll take it if you clearly spell out your rules around min raising, with examples”.
Dealer: “Seat Open!!!!”
 
MrRossKeys said:
Am I the only person here who believes (based on ALL of the rules shared in this thread + my previous knowledge/experience) that the reason there is so much back-and-forth on this topic is because the answer to the original question is "it depends whether it's pre or post flop?"

I've mentioned it here a couple times, but no one has directly responded to it. Others have said what I have said on both sides (call/raise), but isn't there a piece of information that easily determines the answer to this question?

A raise in NLHE by definition is not "at least double the amount of the last completed bet." If it were, the answer to the original question would easily be "Call," because two $5 chips produces an amount less than double the last bet of $6 (required minimum raise of $12 or more, and at least two chips if not announcing a raise verbally).

A raise by definition is "at least the amount of the last raise amount." This means that a blind level of $1/$3 could see a raise to $6 (which is a raise amount of $3) and another raise amount of $4 to $10, and all of that be legally achieved without any player saying a word to another player or the dealer. As long as the raise to $10 happens with more than 1 chip, it is in fact a legal raise and doesn't need to be verbalized.

The only people here that don't agree that two $5 chips constitutes a raise (in this specific preflop situation) either:
1. Don't know the real rules
2. Know the rules and don't like the rules, hence personal house rule overruling, or
3. Know the rules and are trolling in this thread.

Everyone who says "why not just ask what the player meant" are absolutely correct, because most players don't know that you can raise smaller than double the last completed bet and it be legal.

The rules are the rules, and to me the rules are clear... but what is hardly ever clear is the intention of your players and whether they even understand the rules... so honestly, who cares!!!??? As long as the host is consistent, then it doesn't even matter in the long run. Make your players double the last bet preflop... fine... just do it every time. Or, let players min-raise like the rule says they can... fine...

But once again, those here who are adamant about those two $5 chips are a call really are way way WAY wrong (in this particular example).
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I have no idea why it would depend on pre or post flop. Betting rule should be the same for both.

I've never heard of a minimum raise of double the last bet, only a raise has to be equal to or greater than the last bet.

So I'm not sure what you are talking about.
 
MrRossKeys said:
Am I the only person here who believes (based on ALL of the rules shared in this thread + my previous knowledge/experience) that the reason there is so much back-and-forth on this topic is because the answer to the original question is "it depends whether it's pre or post flop?"

I've mentioned it here a couple times, but no one has directly responded to it. Others have said what I have said on both sides (call/raise), but isn't there a piece of information that easily determines the answer to this question?

A raise in NLHE by definition is not "at least double the amount of the last completed bet." If it were, the answer to the original question would easily be "Call," because two $5 chips produces an amount less than double the last bet of $6 (required minimum raise of $12 or more, and at least two chips if not announcing a raise verbally).

A raise by definition is "at least the amount of the last raise amount." This means that a blind level of $1/$3 could see a raise to $6 (which is a raise amount of $3) and another raise amount of $4 to $10, and all of that be legally achieved without any player saying a word to another player or the dealer. As long as the raise to $10 happens with more than 1 chip, it is in fact a legal raise and doesn't need to be verbalized.

The only people here that don't agree that two $5 chips constitutes a raise (in this specific preflop situation) either:
1. Don't know the real rules
2. Know the rules and don't like the rules, hence personal house rule overruling, or
3. Know the rules and are trolling in this thread.

Everyone who says "why not just ask what the player meant" are absolutely correct, because most players don't know that you can raise smaller than double the last completed bet and it be legal.

The rules are the rules, and to me the rules are clear... but what is hardly ever clear is the intention of your players and whether they even understand the rules... so honestly, who cares!!!??? As long as the host is consistent, then it doesn't even matter in the long run. Make your players double the last bet preflop... fine... just do it every time. Or, let players min-raise like the rule says they can... fine...

But once again, those here who are adamant about those two $5 chips are a call really are way way WAY wrong (in this particular example).
Click to expand...
1726271060991.gif
 
springbox said:
Well, they do say a player raises to $6, and in a game with a $3bb the only way to do that is from an initial bet of $3 regardless of whether it's pre or post flop.
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In a game with $3bb, the initial bet post flop is not $3 unless the player actually bets $3. It can be any amount above $3.

A raise to $6 preflop is an increase of $3. A bet of $6 postflop is an increase of $6. They are not the same, hence the difference between pre and post.
Natskule said:
I have no idea why it would depend on pre or post flop. Betting rule should be the same for both.

I've never heard of a minimum raise of double the last bet, only a raise has to be equal to or greater than the last bet.

So I'm not sure what you are talking about.
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The betting rules ARE the same pre and post. It's just that the starting bets pre and post are NOT the same.

See my statement above. It's not about the final dollar amount of the bet... it is about the total dollar amount of the previous raise. Postflop that dollar amount is equal to the previous bet... preflop that dollar amount doesn't have to be equal to the previous bet because there were already bets (or raises) before.

EDIT: I changed the terminology above from "raise" to "increase" because so many people were caught up in the bet and raise terms, when my original point has/had nothing to do with the terminology or difference between the two. The increase from the previous bet (whether from $0 or from a previous bet or raise) is the determining factor for a new raise amount.
 
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