Okay to limp KQo in the UTG? (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

In the early stages of a fairly deep tournament yesterday, so stack sizes don't matter, and no real reads yet. I got an KQ offsuit under the gun, and limped. I don't even remember how the hand played out (you only remember the losers, right) but I ended up winning at showdown, and the old guy across from me, wearing a WSOP training camp hat (who spent all day telling everybody at the table how much he knew about poker) made a big deal about me limping with those cards. I mumbled something about being out of position and he made some sarcastic remark about position, like I was the idiot.
Just checking here, but at that point, in that position, I'm perfectly comfortable limping - I can call disguised, I can 3-bet if it seems right, or I can just look at a flop. Is that a bad play?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Was there a raise already or did you open limp? You aren't very clear how the action went.

Open limping is bad. Calling a raise is okay.

 

[upNdown]

Sorry, brainfart - I was UTG - no idea why I typed cut-off originally.

 

[WedgeRock]

In the early stages of a fairly deep tournament yesterday, so stack sizes don't matter, and no real reads yet. I got an KQ offsuit in the cutoff, and limped. I don't even remember how the hand played out (you only remember the losers, right) but I ended up winning at showdown, and the old guy across from me, wearing a WSOP training camp hat (who spent all day telling everybody at the table how much he knew about poker) made a big deal about me limping with those cards. I mumbled something about being out of position and he made some sarcastic remark about position, like I was the idiot.
Just checking here, but at that point, in that position, I'm perfectly comfortable limping - I can call disguised, I can 3-bet if it seems right, or I can just look at a flop. Is that a bad play?

Early tournament pots are usually small. IMO, there is no reason to risk chips by raising there. I'm totally fine with a limp early like that. Pot control.

And FWIW, I love that this guy is labeling you as a donkey for the rest of the table (if they believe this dbag)... It can be good to have a weak image, IMO.

 

[detroitdad]

I've used this move at a 1/2 cash table when there was a crazy aggressive player to my left. I had K's. I was first to act, limped in. Crazy dude raised it to 15. Four callers before it got back to me. I shove for 120. It gets back to him and he goes on a rant about how unethical my check raise was. I've never seen a grown man pout and whine so much before. He ended up folding as did everyone else. He took a 15 minute break before cashing out. I decided that when he sat back down I was going to do the exact same thing to him with ATC's.

I usually do it with something better than K/Q. I don't hate the limp move @upNdown . I wouldn't do it consistently or anything. Have a clear plan what your going to do if raised.

 

[WedgeRock]

I wouldn't do it consistently or anything. Have a clear plan what your going to do if raised.

Agreed and agreed.

 

[upNdown]

I've used this move at a 1/2 cash table when there was a crazy aggressive player to my left. I had K's.

Yup, I've had that move in my arsenal since some guy did that to me with Aces. I had Kings. Expensive hand. Great move on his part.
This had was a bit different though. My thinking was more like what @WedgeRock said above.

 

[inca911]

Predictable players are more easily defeated. Of course limping occasionally with a great holding is fine! Like WedgeRock pointed out, being publicly labeled as a weak player can also be very much to your advantage, IMHO. Don't be that guy that everyone folds to when he raises. Hehe

 

[AWenger]

he made some sarcastic remark about position, like I was the idiot.

I actually now enjoy getting post hand 'lessons' from other players when I win a pot. I usually keep it friendly and let comments and insults slide. Usually the players making those types of comments are the players you want in the game.

(Edit - post hand lessons)

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Actually I think raising or folding are both preferable to limping in this spot. Raising utg is an indicator of a very strong hand, so if you get 3-bet, it's an easy fold. If you get called, you can c-bet most flops, and get credit for having a strong hand. Just limping invites someone to raise and steal, and even if other people decide to just flat, you're still playing out of position for the rest of the hand.

 

[ChaosRock]

Actually I think raising or folding are both preferable to limping in this spot. Raising utg is an indicator of a very strong hand, so if you get 3-bet, it's an easy fold. If you get called, you can c-bet most flops, and get credit for having a strong hand. Just limping invites someone to raise and steal, and even if other people decide to just flat, you're still playing out of position for the rest of the hand.

Agree with that ^!

Not limping...

 

[Kain8]

Limps should be done sparingly, but the time to do it is definitely in the early stages of a tournament.

 

[WedgeRock]

Actually I think raising or folding are both preferable to limping in this spot. Raising utg is an indicator of a very strong hand, so if you get 3-bet, it's an easy fold. If you get called, you can c-bet most flops, and get credit for having a strong hand. Just limping invites someone to raise and steal, and even if other people decide to just flat, you're still playing out of position for the rest of the hand.

I agree with this too. But early in the tournament, when everyone has 100BB, losing 1 BB isn't going to hurt. And I'd rather establish the table image you discuss later, when there is more meat in the middle.

I don't think raising or folding is the wrong play, not by any stretch. But I am okay with a limp early in the tournament.

And FWIW, my original comment was made when I thought the OP was in the CO, not UTG.

 

[Mental Nomad]

I don't think limping is generally best here, but it's not a clear-cut case of good versus awful plays. There's wiggle room, table feel, image to consider... And the need to vary one's play a little.

The best time to limp here is when some thinks-they're-a-genius will call you out for it and try to prove to everyone you're an idiot.

So, this was perfect.

 

[WedgeRock]

some thinks-they're-a-genius will call you out for it and try to prove to everyone you're an idiot.

Damn. I just realized a leak in my game...

 

[Wils]

The only thing is, you're out of position and by limping you don't get any info about the players acting behind you and you don't thin out the field.

What if everyone limps? How do you play the flop when you don't hit? What if someone behind you raises preflop? Would you call?

 

[Wils]

early in the tournament, when everyone has 100BB, losing 1 BB isn't going to hurt.

So is the intention to call and then fold to the first min-raise, and hope every other player (plus you) checks all the way to the showdown?

Surely it's early on, when you're not getting screwed by blinds and antes, that you want to be more selective, because you don't have the blinds:time pressure?

 

[BGinGA]

Jam.

 

[WedgeRock]

Early in a tournament, I don't mind playing a hand this passively. Yes, if I made up my mind to limp PF, I most likely fold to a PF raise.

-EV for sure, but I don't mind paying 1 BB for that image.*

*edit: in the early stages of a tournament

 

[BGinGA]

Agreed, although I'm probably re-raising if somebody raises PF. Even if it doesn't pan out now, it will work nicely when I do it with KK or AA later.

 

[upNdown]

The only thing is, you're out of position and by limping you don't get any info about the players acting behind you and you don't thin out the field.

What if everyone limps? How do you play the flop when you don't hit? What if someone behind you raises preflop? Would you call?

Preflop raise, it would depend on who did what, where. But I'm unlikely to be folding those cards preflop.
Post-flop to a table full of limpers, I'd probably be playing it pretty straight up - lead out if I got some of it, check if I got all of it or none of it.

 

[MatB]

@upNdown was the guy in the WSOP hat a real old skinny guy with a loud mouth?

 

[upNdown]

@upNdown was the guy in the WSOP hat a real old skinny guy with a loud mouth?

No, he was older, but not skinny. He was from Florida. I folded out of turn by mistake, and he announced to the whole table that you get a 1 round penalty for acting out of turn in Florida.
He complained about a guy coming over from a new table with his chips in his hands, not in a rack.
He complained about a guy who left his hands on the table, obscuring his cards.
He complained about a guy who would pick his cards up off the table to look at them.
He complained about a guy who was standing behind his friend, chatting with him.
He told us what every hand was called, and often again when a new dealer came - that "aloha hand" story was barely amusing the first time; I didn't need to hear it three times.
Other than that (and the stuff I'm forgetting) he was a nice enough guy.

 

[WedgeRock]

Sounds like you should have bought him a tall glass of STFU.

 

[MatB]

ha!! Must be something about guys wearing WSOP to local card room tournaments !!

Sounds really like the old guy that plays at Hampton.

As obnoxious as guys like that can come across, I actually enjoy the entertainment !

 

[AWenger]

He was from Florida. I folded out of turn by mistake, and he announced to the whole table that you get a 1 round penalty for acting out of turn in Florida.
He complained about a guy coming over from a new table with his chips in his hands, not in a rack.
He complained about a guy who left his hands on the table, obscuring his cards.
He complained about a guy who would pick his cards up off the table to look at them.

The issues above that the guy was complaining about are actually very valid points, that on occasion, I would feel compelled to speak up about -- not to complain to players or the staff -- but more to educate players on why it's important that they don't do those things during a tournament.

I recall playing at a tournament at the Venetian and the tournament staff made sure to give a rack to every player who needed to move tables and they explained that all players needed to rack up their chips before moving tables, and that any chips needed to be in racks, otherwise those chips may be deemed out of play (or something like that). One of the reasons, if I understand correctly, is to keep chips visible and visible to security cameras at all times, is to help avoid (or spot) illegal chip swapping/'dumping' between players and to make sure players aren't pocketing chips for those nefarious reasons. Just helps to keep everything above board and fair for all players.

 

[Ghoti]

I prefer raising, but that doesn't make that dude any less of a douche (and his hat doesn't help, either).

 

[upNdown]

The issues above that the guy was complaining about are actually very valid points, that on occasion, I would feel compelled to speak up about -- not to complain to players or the staff -- but more to educate players on why it's important that they don't do those things during a tournament.

I recall playing at a tournament at the Venetian and the tournament staff made sure to give a rack to every player who needed to move tables and they explained that all players needed to rack up their chips before moving tables, and that any chips needed to be in racks, otherwise those chips may be deemed out of play (or something like that). One of the reasons, if I understand correctly, is to keep chips visible and visible to security cameras at all times, is to help avoid (or spot) illegal chip swapping/'dumping' between players and to make sure players aren't pocketing chips for those nefarious reasons. Just helps to keep everything above board and fair for all players.

I get that they're all valid issues. But when you're the only guy who mentions any of them, and you mention all of them, some multiple times, and some I've probably forgotten, THAT says something.

I feel like I'm getting back to my "who cares about string bets" thread, where I had to agree that you were all right, that rules were important. And I do agree. Yes they're important at home games, so yes, they're important at New Hampshire card rooms too. But in my mind, if you're the guy who's enforcing every rule, while a whole roomful of people are happily playing along without a chirp, then you are a twatwaffle, and you shouldn't be playing there.
And yes, he has the right to me the twatwaffle. Oh my god yes, he has the right and the duty to speak up about every perceived infraction, praise Jesus. And I (and everybody else there) have the right to call him a twatwaffle for being such a twatwaffle in a $90 NH cardroom tournament.

 

[upNdown]

I prefer raising, but that doesn't make that dude any less of a douche (and his hat doesn't help, either).

Oh, did I forget to mention the two poker rings and the poker event t-shirt?

 

[Poker Zombie]

Meh. If you can't handle the characters in a cardroom, stay out of the cardroom.

If the tournament is deep, I like the limp. ATC limps even. Nothing like 3-7s hitting and when they "school" you, troll them with a "...but they were sooooted!".

Table image, +1 - though table image is probably meaningless to a guy advertising his poker awesomeness.