Okay to limp KQo in the UTG? (1 Viewer)

[BGinGA]

I want a twatwaffle t-shirt. Make sure it has your phone number on it for those who need an explanation.

 

[kk405]

Generally I think it's a bad idea to limp, period. And limp-calling is an even worse strategy in most cases. I despise playing limped pots.

 

[upNdown]

Meh. If you can't handle the characters in a cardroom, stay out of the cardroom.

I can handle the characters. Mostly I like them that rant was directed toward anybody who's going to respond that he was right to call out each of those rules. If a different person called it out each time, I'd say wow, we have a very concientious poker room here. But sincevit was the same guy every time, he's the poker expert character.
But here's something that was going on, that I hadn't seen in a poker room before. There were a handful of deaf people there, some at the same table. A woman at our table mentioned that they had to be warned against signing at the table, previously, and then one of our dealers confirmed that he'd had to call the floor on them before for signing at the table.

 

[upNdown]

I despise playing limped pots.

Good thing there's something you can do about that.
I mostly agree with you there. I was actually hoping for a raise. I'm not sure why limp-calling in that circumstance would be bad idea.

 

[links_slayer]

If it's good enough to call, you gotta be in there raising.

 

[MatB]

....and regards to the original question about limping with KQo UTG.


I personally think limping is ok here, its early in the tourney and your settling in, no need to get agro early on. Get a feel for the table.

Also, when someone busts my ball for the way i played 2 cards i laugh it off.

But when someone starts to give me a lecture on how i should have played my cards, i tell them " you play your cards how you want, i'll play mine"

 

[bivey]

Actually I think raising or folding are both preferable to limping in this spot. Raising utg is an indicator of a very strong hand, so if you get 3-bet, it's an easy fold. If you get called, you can c-bet most flops, and get credit for having a strong hand. Just limping invites someone to raise and steal, and even if other people decide to just flat, you're still playing out of position for the rest of the hand.

Says the guy who limps AK UTG

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Says the guy who limps AK UTG

My play is very table/player dependent. AK is way stronger than KQ, and if I think there are enough aggressive players behind me that someone will raise, I'll sometimes throw in the occasional limp/3-bet. But not always, i try to vary my actions.

 

[12thMan]

If it's good enough to call, you gotta be in there raising.

That's your style right there professor.

 

[bivey]

My play is very table/player dependent. AK is way stronger than KQ, and if I think there are enough aggressive players behind me that someone will raise, I'll sometimes throw in the occasional limp/3-bet. But not always, i try to vary my actions.

You know I was just trolling you, right?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I do lol, but someone reading the thread who may be trying to learn something may not be aware, so I thought I'd clarify.

 

[courage]

Early in tourney makes no difference in this scenario. In most cases, esp if you're a weaker fit-or-fold type player limping is just throwing chum in the water. Do not like.

 

[Poker Zombie]

But here's something that was going on, that I hadn't seen in a poker room before. There were a handful of deaf people there, some at the same table. A woman at our table mentioned that they had to be warned against signing at the table, previously, and then one of our dealers confirmed that he'd had to call the floor on them before for signing at the table.

How did they warn them if they were deaf?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

How did they warn them if they were deaf?

You know it is possible to communicate with the hearing impaired. A lot of deaf people can read lips, and if none of them could, there's always this thing called a pen and paper.

 

[Poker Zombie]

You know it is possible to communicate with the hearing impaired. A lot of deaf people can read lips, and if none of them could, there's always this thing called a pen and paper.

I guess it sounded funnier when it was just in my head.

 

[WedgeRock]

We had a guy in our league who was hearing impaired. I'm not sure that he was totally deaf, but I think he could read lips. He generally confirmed action if he was ever not 100%, and if he was about to do something that he shouldn't, if someone tapped the table in front of him, he stopped, got correct action, and proceeded.

It was almost a non-issue.

 

[upNdown]

You know it is possible to communicate with the hearing impaired. A lot of deaf people can read lips, and if none of them could, there's always this thing called a pen and paper.

And I have sympathy - if there's only one other person at the table you can communicate with, I understand why you might want to make a remark now and then. But if it was my table, it would probably bother me more than any of the other violations I mentioned above. English only at the table, sorry.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

And I have sympathy - if there's only one other person at the table you can communicate with, I understand why you might want to make a remark now and then. But if it was my table, it would probably bother me more than any of the other violations I mentioned above. English only at the table, sorry.

I was responding to Zombie's ill-fated attempt at humor, you're absolutely right, they shouldn't be signing at the table.

 

[upNdown]

I was responding to Zombie's ill-fated attempt at humor, you're absolutely right, they shouldn't be signing at the table.

I got your samples yesterday. Friggen stunning chips.

 

[WedgeRock]

Even if it doesn't pan out now, it will work nicely when I do it with KK or AA later.

A good reason to limp KQo UTG... so you can do it later with KK or AA.

 

[tjohnsonnpu]

The only thing is, you're out of position and by limping you don't get any info about the players acting behind you and you don't thin out the field.

What if everyone limps? How do you play the flop when you don't hit? What if someone behind you raises preflop? Would you call?

I think that this is the best point. I think the open limp is OK when we are looking to be more balanced at a really tight table. Opening action completely depends on the situation, personally I might view someone open limping from UTG or UTG +1 sneaky if I view them as a good player, I am weary of any good player playing UTG regardless of the size of his bet. Sometimes the action is so slow at tables I don't mind risking a limp in this spot just so I don't fold out action when I have good holdings.

 

[upNdown]

Thanks everybody. When I read the responses, my reaction was "yeah, I know limping is bad; I'm not an idiot." Problem was, despite not being an idiot, I'd been playing like an idiot.
This got me thinking about things. I adjusted my game, and cashed a tournament over the weekend.
I appreciate all the responses.

 

[upNdown]

I think that this is the best point. I think the open limp is OK when we are looking to be more balanced at a really tight table. Opening action completely depends on the situation, personally I might view someone open limping from UTG or UTG +1 sneaky if I view them as a good player, I am weary of any good player playing UTG regardless of the size of his bet. Sometimes the action is so slow at tables I don't mind risking a limp in this spot just so I don't fold out action when I have good holdings.

Interesting perspective.
Over the weekend, we were approaching the bubble, and I was approaching being short stacked due to being card dead for a LONG time.
4 limpers to me in the BB and I was looking at 45o. Crap cards and almost short stacked, I called.
Flop is 3,4,5 rainbow.
I made a 4bb raise.
UTG+1 reraised to 20 big blinds.
I was pretty sure I was ahead. He certainly hadn't limped on 26, and probably not 67. I had blockers to most sets, so I figured him for something like 8's or 9's.
I decided I was ahead, but wasn't going to risk my tournament life on a crappy 2 pair. I folded, he showed his aces.
I don't think he played his hand very well there, considering there were only 7 of us at the table at that point (if he was hoping to 3bet his aces pre) and he could have easily gotten called down with a set or a straight out of the blinds. And I probably should have shoved, but I was okay with the fold at that point.

 

[AWenger]

Over the weekend, we were approaching the bubble, and I was approaching being short stacked due to being card dead for a LONG time.
4 limpers to me in the BB and I was looking at 45o. Crap cards and almost short stacked, I called.
Flop is 3,4,5 rainbow.
I made a 4bb raise.
UTG+1 reraised to 20 big blinds.
I was pretty sure I was ahead. He certainly hadn't limped on 26, and probably not 67. I had blockers to most sets, so I figured him for something like 8's or 9's.
I decided I was ahead, but wasn't going to risk my tournament life on a crappy 2 pair. I folded, he showed his aces.

If you can take some blunt criticism, in my opinion, folding top two pair in this spot is worse than limping with KQ in the OP above. (Note - unless there were 1 or 2 other shorter stacks that you were sure you'd outlast.)

Your read was good. There are some hands you're behind like A2, 67 or 33. There are also lots of draws out there like 22, 66, 77 or 56. There are other overpairs that might shove on this flop. 45o may not have held up if the board paired a 3 or running pair (you can count this as approximately 4 outs using rule of 2 & 4). If you are behind a straight or set of 3s, you still have 4 outs to improve to a full house. But there are a lot of hands you're ahead of.

 

[upNdown]

If you can take some blunt criticism, in my opinion, folding top two pair in this spot is worse than limping with KQ in the OP above. (Note - unless there were 1 or 2 other shorter stacks that you were sure you'd outlast.)

Your read was good. There are some hands you're behind like A2, 67 or 33. There are also lots of draws out there like 22, 66, 77 or 56. There are other overpairs that might shove on this flop. 45o may not have held up if the board paired a 3 or running pair (you can count this as approximately 4 outs using rule of 2 & 4). If you are behind a straight or set of 3s, you still have 4 outs to improve to a full house. But there are a lot of hands you're ahead of.

I wouldn't have mentioned it if I wasn't looking for criticism. And I know you're right. I felt pretty strongly that I SHOULD call. But like I said we were approaching the bubble, there were a couple of short stacks at the other table, and my ego REALLY needed a cash that day. Normally I'd rather play to win than to cash, but not that day. Not one of my best poker decisions, but one I'd be able to live with a lot more than if I shoved and got coolered or sucked out on, for my tournament.

 

[jbutler]

I wouldn't have mentioned it if I wasn't looking for criticism. And I know you're right. I felt pretty strongly that I SHOULD call. But like I said we were approaching the bubble, there were a couple of short stacks at the other table, and my ego REALLY needed a cash that day. Normally I'd rather play to win than to cash, but not that day. Not one of my best poker decisions, but one I'd be able to live with a lot more than if I shoved and got coolered or sucked out on, for my tournament.

You really cannot think like that or else it will infect your play and cause you to do things like folding top two pair when you're "approaching being shortstacked." Agree with @AWenger that folding here is a bigger mistake than limping KQo UTG. Both are big mistakes pretty clearly, but this fold is way worse.

From the hands you've posted in this thread you're falling into a pretty typical pattern for a lot of players: too loose passive preflop and too tight afterward. You really should reverse that. Tighten up your preflop range (possibly to exclude KQo UTG or at least make it a raise or fold hand) and realize how your equity allows you - requires you - to continue on with hands in spots like the one here.

 

[upNdown]

You really cannot think like that or else it will infect your play and cause you to do things like folding top two pair when you're "approaching being shortstacked." Agree with @AWenger that folding here is a bigger mistake than limping KQo UTG. Both are big mistakes pretty clearly, but this fold is way worse.

From the hands you've posted in this thread you're falling into a pretty typical pattern for a lot of players: too loose passive preflop and too tight afterward. You really should reverse that. Tighten up your preflop range (possibly to exclude KQo UTG or at least make it a raise or fold hand) and realize how your equity allows you - requires you - to continue on with hands in spots like the one here.

You're probably right about my postflop play. I think I do pretty well with it in a cash game or in the earlier stages of a tournament. But when all my chips are on the line with no rebuys, I DO tighten up. I suppose that's just something else for people to exploit.
I think I've addressed the preflop play - hopefully I can keep reminding myself to keep playing that way - agressive for sure, and a range of tight to "somewhere between tight and loose" depending on position.

 

[jbutler]

You're probably right about my postflop play. I think I do pretty well with it in a cash game or in the earlier stages of a tournament. But when all my chips are on the line with no rebuys, I DO tighten up. I suppose that's just something else for people to exploit.
I think I've addressed the preflop play - hopefully I can keep reminding myself to keep playing that way - agressive for sure, and a range of tight to "somewhere between tight and loose" depending on position.

Spend some time on pokerstove checking the equities versus the various hands you think he could have in that spot and I think you'll be surprised how wide you can continue.

I still think Bart Hanson does a good job of explaining a lot of basic concepts and what he lacks in flare of presentation (he almost seems like a Stepford wife in this video), he makes up for in fundamentals. This video here explains step by step how you can evaluate your equity versus a range of hands using very easy math on the fly in the middle of a hand. Anyone who isn't doing this kind of thinking during the hand is leaving a massive amount of money on the table.

Don't think that you can't do this kind of math and analysis during the hand. You definitely can. But the key is to do work off the table by just running through various hands and how to construct the analysis like Bart describes above. Soon enough it will be a rote process that you can do on the fly very easily.