PAHWM: $5/10/(125?) AKs (2 Viewers)

[Payback]

This hand happens a few weeks ago and after talking with @Schmendr1ck for a bit tonight I remembered I had this strange hand that I wanted to post and forgot.

I was playing $2/5 for a few hours before getting called to this $5/10 uncapped game. I knew most of the table when arriving and realized the lineup was good. However the seat I got was not so good.

Seat 1 ($7k): The reason the game is running. Hyper aggressive and capable of playing anything and everything. He is usually found playing 300/600 limit or higher so this game is small for him. He's 3-4 beers thus far and has raises about 40% of hands. One odd hand is he flat called an open raise from seat 7 (6k) and open jammed on a 554 board into a $200 pot.

Seat 2 ($10k): Another mark. A few weeks prior called a $400 4 bet PF in a 2/5 from me with A8o. I shoved an 8 high flop with AK and he snap called. I'm not sure he remembers the hand as he was drunk. He's put down 3 beers since I've been at the table during the last 1.5 hours.

Seat 3 ($4k): The other half of my bad beat. If you remember he called a PFR with 23s. Loose passive player and also hates money. Rumor is he gave the BBJ money back within a week playing PLO.

Hero ($2.7k): Sitting in the 9 seat and have played pretty tight. Only playing about 5-6 pots since joining the table. The first 2 hands at the table Hero raised with AJs and AQs and was 3 bet by Seat 2. Hero called and C/F completely whiffed flops.

Seat 10 ($2.5k): Semi LAG and gets stupid aggressive on the button. Capable of bluffing big or making very light river calls. Can tilt when he is losing, but isn't tonight.

Action:
New dealer arrives. Seat 2 is the button, Seat 3 posts $5, Seat 4 posts $10, Seat 2 posts a pile of red chips as a button straddle. Somewhere between $100-$125. Previous dealers have only allowed $20 on the button. This dealer doesn't say anything and proceeds with the action.

Seat 3 calls $20, Seat 4 folds and starts asking what is the deal with the button situation. Most players are like whatever leave the money there. As seats 5/6/7 fold there are still no objections or decisions made. Meanwhile Seat 2 says if the floor comes over this is going to be a blind raise.
*Floor did get called twice before about $100 straddles and both times forced it down to $20.

Hero looks down at


Your action.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Floor can’t change the straddle at this point, action has occurred. I’m raising it up to $700 and calling off if someone jams on us. I could also be convinced pretty easily to just go ahead and jam the full $2.7k in hoping to get seat 1 to gamble with us.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think it's unwise to proceed without knowing for sure whether that $100 pile of chips represents $100 or $20 in the pot. Make the dealer give you a definitive answer to that, and then make it $300 if it's $100, or $100 if it's $20.

Just because people have acted doesn't mean the house will uphold a straddle being larger than the rules allow. They previously ruled it $20 and would probably rule it $20 again (and warn the straddler to stop being annoying) if asked at this decision-making juncture.

 

[Payback]

Floor can’t change the straddle at this point, action has occurred. I’m raising it up to $700 and calling off if someone jams on us. I could also be convinced pretty easily to just go ahead and jam the full $2.7k in hoping to get seat 1 to gamble with us.

Hold up. I need to change something in OP.. Realized I messed up one key detail. Fixed the action.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Floor can’t change the straddle at this point, action has occurred.

Especially if it's been established twice already that it must be $20 and only $20, the fact that seat 2 put a bigger pile of chips out is irrelevant. It's like betting $40 in limit poker by jokingly putting out a whole stack of $100 in reds. Doesn't make the bet $100, not even if the guy next to you "calls" for $100. Moreover, there's an overarching interest in the house maintaining control over its rules and not letting rogue players override them via dealer negligence (which is what this is, if the straddle is supposed to be $20).

Of course, someone has actually called for the $100-whatever at this point, and a few others have folded. I can see the case for ruling the straddle live for whatever amount was accepted by these players as the action, but I'm definitely leaning the other way.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Just read the updated OP. Yeah, no way I'm acting until someone in charge decides what the bet is.

 

[timinater]

Disclaimer - this is well above my normal stakes

So seat 2 is saying if the floor comes over and rules it $20, he's just going to leave the $125 in out of turn? I'd wait for the ruling, but after that I'm pretty sure I like raising it up big and not farting around getting cute.

 

[CraigT78]

I had a guy play like this in the Rivers in Pittsburgh, he'd blind straddle $100 and I was not clear on the rules - I raised and he was able to fold and get $96 back as it was ruled a out of turn raise, and my action allowed him to reverse it (or some shit like that). So yeah, I'm not acting until I know 100% what that 'bet' is.

 

[Payback]

Disclaimer - this is well above my normal stakes

So seat 2 is saying if the floor comes over and rules it $20, he's just going to leave the $125 in out of turn? I'd wait for the ruling, but after that I'm pretty sure I like raising it up big and not farting around getting cute.

Basically that was the indication that was made by the player and has been the norm any other time. If he leaves the money out there and the action gets to him, his action is deemed a raise.

 

[Moxie Mike]

...Meanwhile Seat 2 says if the floor comes over this is going to be a blind raise.
*Floor did get called twice before about $100 straddles and both times forced it down to $20.

Hero looks down at


Your action.

Since he stated action out of turn, if the action doesn't change to him he is bound to this. So I would limp for $20 (don't 'call' by matching the button's stack for fear of it being perceived as a raise), binding him to his stated action, see what others do and then repop it when the action get back around to you.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I'm uncomfortable with the unknown status of the big straddle, but agree with the idea of a limp, planning to raise big when it gets back to me.

 

[DrStrange]

I agree. Hero can't proceed until the button "straddle" is resolved.

I like the idea of jamming all-in either directly or as a limp/raise vs a blind bet from button.

 

[timinater]

So I would limp for $20 (don't 'call' by matching the button's stack for fear of it being perceived as a raise), binding him to his stated action, see what others do and then repop it when the action get back around to you.

agree with the idea of a lump, planning to raise big when it gets back to me.

I like the idea of jamming all-in either directly or as a limp/raise vs a blind bet from button.

This was my first instinct too, and had it typed out then deleted it thinking "too cute/FPS" But I agree there is some validity to this idea - though I think it might be player/read/game dynamics dependent.

 

[Rhodeman77]

If the money stays in if it gets to him and Hero has to call $20 to keep it there then I am calling $20 so his blind raise stands. And of course raising when it gets back to us. How much depends on what everyone else does before it gets back to us.

 

[Jimulacrum]

If it's definitely going to be a $20 straddle with a guaranteed $105 (or whatever) raise when it gets back to him, then I like limping for $20 and popping it again when it gets back for the full amount. How much depends on what else happens.

If seat 3 knows this, he could be planning to make a similar play with a big hand, so it's good that you'll get to see him act before you're in for more than $20. But if he's normally loose and passive, I'm not too concerned about him.

Again, though, I need official word from the house that this will be upheld as a $20 straddle with a binding out-of-turn raise before I act on it. Just because it has played out that way before doesn't mean it will this time. He put the $125 out there all at once, as part of his straddle action, so I could see an argument that he just hasn't taken his change back yet. Doesn't seem reasonable for the house to rule that someone who puts up extra chips with a straddle is always making a straddle plus an OOT raise.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I'm leaving this table and finding a Three Card Poker table and getting drunk.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I had a very a very similar hand happen at my home game when a guy that normally plays $10/25 showed up. We were in the Hold’em round and he said that when it gets to him he would blind raise it POT before the hand started. So the straddle was on to $5 and several people call it and it gets to him and he makes it $75 blind. Pile of chips are still sitting on the cards from when they were dealt to him. I’m next to act with AKo and jam for about $500. Folds back to him and he calls blind. Board runs out and I have have Ace high still. He digs out his first card, a 4 for nothing. Second card and 7 and he makes a pair to bust me.

I would do it again and again all night if he wanted to with AK vs a blind hand for $500 flips.

 

[kirchhausen]

I'd limp-raise size dependent on if anyone else is in the pot when it gets back to me.

 

[kk405]

If you're asking what is the most 'profitable' way to play this hand, it's just limp/calling behind. There is almost no version of this where action comes to the button and he doesn't raise, after which I would re-raise and stack off for my $2.7K. /eot

 

[Frogzilla]

If we limp $5 the raise stands (and we will have an opportunity to raise)? I think I’m just limping my entire open range knowing I’m gonna get blind raised. Not really sure what this range looks like but AKs is in it

 

[Payback]

Eating dinner after a very long day. Sorry for the slow ish response. I will post next update in a bit.

 

[Payback]

Seems like Hero's thought process was similar to most of yours, however @Jimulacrum nailed it this time around. Maybe he should write a book on straddling?


Action:
New dealer arrives. Seat 2 is the button, Seat 3 posts $5, Seat 4 posts $10, Seat 2 posts a pile of red chips as a button straddle. Somewhere between $100-$125. Previous dealers have only allowed $20 on the button. This dealer doesn't say anything and proceeds with the action.

Seat 3 calls $20, Seat 4 folds and starts asking what is the deal with the button situation. Most players are like whatever leave the money there. As seats 5/6/7 fold there are still no objections or decisions made. Meanwhile Seat 2 says if the floor comes over this is going to be a blind raise.
*Floor did get called twice before about $100 straddles and both times forced it down to $20.

Hero looks down at


Hero decides on a flat call of $20 with the plan to LRR for a few reasons:
1) Avoiding calling attention to his hand.
2) Wanting to get the action to the button quickly so the blind raise stands.
3) There are 2 aggressive players behind Hero that might raise. Not to mention that we will get to see what Seat 3 does before acting again.

*Vs any of these players Hero is willing to shove PF and play for stacks.

Action Continues:
Seat 10 folds, Seat 1 folds and now the dealer says your action Seat 2. He says oh, I'll just call and pulls back ~$100. A player not in the hand objects before Hero can, floor comes over, asks about what happened, and rules, that he can't put out more than $20 for a straddle and anything above that doesn't count. Therefore it's like the chips aren't there and he can do what he wants. Seat 2 elects on checking his option. Hero mumbles profanities under his breath....

*The usual floor that Hero loves, that is always there when he plays, and makes consistent rules was gone. He would bind his action as a raise 100% of the time. This fill in is apparently highly inconsistent.

3 players to Flop ($70):
Seat 3 (SB) checks, Hero ???

 

[Frogzilla]

Fuck that. Floor and me are having some words after the hand.

I bet $50

 

[Rhodeman77]

Wow! That is some angle shooting bullshit!! Did the dealer tell the floor that seat 2 said he is blind raising to ~$100?

As played I’m betting, probably $50 as well.

 

[CraigT78]

I bet $50 and win or lose would walk out of this poker room.

 

[Payback]

I bet $50 and win or lose would walk out of this poker room.

Sounds like you need another beer

 

[CraigT78]

Sounds like you need another beer

I do

 

[David Dobbs]

I agree. Hero can't proceed until the button "straddle" is resolved.

I like the idea of jamming all-in either directly or as a limp/raise vs a blind bet from button.

I agree with that as well, nothing wrong with going all in in that situation

 

[Payback]

Action:
New dealer arrives. Seat 2 is the button, Seat 3 posts $5, Seat 4 posts $10, Seat 2 posts a pile of red chips as a button straddle. Somewhere between $100-$125. Previous dealers have only allowed $20 on the button. This dealer doesn't say anything and proceeds with the action.

Seat 3 calls $20, Seat 4 folds and starts asking what is the deal with the button situation. Most players are like whatever leave the money there. As seats 5/6/7 fold there are still no objections or decisions made. Meanwhile Seat 2 says if the floor comes over this is going to be a blind raise.
*Floor did get called twice before about $100 straddles and both times forced it down to $20.

Hero looks down at


Hero decides on a flat call of $20 with the plan to LRR for a few reasons:
1) Avoiding calling attention to his hand.
2) Wanting to get the action to the button quickly so the blind raise stands.
3) There are 2 aggressive players behind Hero that might raise. Not to mention that we will get to see what Seat 3 does before acting again.

*Vs any of these players Hero is willing to shove PF and play for stacks.

Action Continues:
Seat 10 folds, Seat 1 folds and now the dealer says your action Seat 2. He says oh, I'll just call and pulls back ~$100. A player not in the hand objects before Hero can, floor comes over, asks about what happened, and rules, that he can't put out more than $20 for a straddle and anything above that doesn't count. Therefore it's like the chips aren't there and he can do what he wants. Seat 2 elects on checking his option. Hero mumbles profanities under his breath....

*The usual floor that Hero loves, that is always there when he plays, and makes consistent rules was gone. He would bind his action as a raise 100% of the time. This fill in is apparently highly inconsistent.

3 players to Flop ($70):
Seat 3 (SB) checks, Hero bets $45, Seat 2 raises to $125, Seat 3 folds, action back on Hero.

 

[gopherblue]

Raise. $450?