PAHWM: AhKh in an action "$1/$3" game (4 Viewers)

[MrCatPants]

Yeah, not sure how the flop is a check and the turn is an obvious bet. Regardless here we are, and I think it is just a math problem at this point right? There is 970 in the pot and it cost you 320 to call. You have 8 hearts (one could fill villian up so I don't count that) and 2 kings giving you 10 pretty clean outs, unless villian is already full.

Pot is giving you 3:1. Your outs are 4:1 and maybe much worse. Can you get more money out of him if you hit? Seat two is an action player and closed action pre-flop. Any number of combos containing a 5 and pocket pairs are in his range. Villian's story checks out so far, so I think it's safe to assume we are now behind. Smart play I think is fold, but I'm not smart and would probably call. River is check/fold on a miss and check/call on anything that helps us.

There's hands you are already ahead of that would act this way too. Eg. J10c 109c, J9h, etc. Not too many more, but some additional combos to consider that would take this line.

 

[JustinInMN]

I don't get why so many posters are playing so scared against loose villains. Folding to one check raise after we as hero showed weakness on the flop?

I can get it if we had tight tough opponents, but loose opponents that can have 5x can also have Tx and much more. Even with a check raise.

 

[JMC9389]

I don't get why so many posters are playing so scared against loose villains. Folding to one check raise after showing weakness on the flop?

I can get if we had tight tough opponents, but loose opponents that can have 5x can calso have Tx and much more. Even with a check raise.

The board pairing makes the hero's hand pretty capped with minimal chances for improvement.

Multiways, someone very likely has a 5 here given the cast of characters. A flopped set from a villain likely checks flop hoping for a bet from hero and they go for the check raise.

As mentioned in my last post here, say you call the check raise, what are we hoping for on the river? Even if a heart comes, with the board paired, things get very hairy now.

 

[ChipEnvy]

I don't get why so many posters are playing so scared against loose villains. Folding to one check raise after showing weakness on the flop?

I can get if we had tight tough opponents, but loose opponents that can have 5x can calso have Tx and much more. Even with a check raise.

Playing ‘scared’ because we played the flop as poorly as possible and the 2nd worst card in the deck hit the board.

There is a difference between a loose player and a maniac. On a board with this texture a loose player is basically saying “I’m ready to play for stacks” whereas a maniac is saying “OK let’s do dis……… Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jeeenkins” with 10x.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Playing ‘scared’ because we played the flop as poorly as possible and the 2nd worst card in the deck hit the board.

There is a difference between a loose player and a maniac. On a board with this texture a loose player is basically saying “I’m ready to play for stacks” whereas a maniac is saying “OK let’s do dis……… Leeeeeeeeeeeeeroy Jeeenkins” with 10x.

 

[MrCatPants]

I don't get why so many posters are playing so scared against loose villains. Folding to one check raise after showing weakness on the flop?

I can get if we had tight tough opponents, but loose opponents that can have 5x can calso have Tx and much more. Even with a check raise.

Yeah. I pull c/r shit like this with oesds and fds with a pair or middling pairs when against tighter players. And if they call and the draws brick, the river shove usually gets it done. Occasionally have my pants down and get looked up, but thus is poker.

 

[BGinGA]

I don't get why so many posters are playing so scared against loose villains. Folding to one check raise after showing weakness on the flop?

I can get if we had tight tough opponents, but loose opponents that can have 5x can calso have Tx and much more. Even with a check raise.

So what hand(s) is Villain putting Hero on when check-raising with Tx? Certainly not AK, KQ, KT, AA, KK, TT, and 55 (maybe even KJ, AT, QQ or JJ) -- all certainly possible as multiple-preflop-limper raising hands and at the top of Hero's range, and all pretty unlikely to fold now to a turn check-raise. Tx is almost certainly behind, even with a club draw.

That pretty much just leaves Hero's smaller pocket pairs <TT, straight draws (AQ, AJ, QJ, Q9/J9!? and flush draws (Ax and Qx but actually sorta limited to just A9h/A9c and maybe A8h/A8c) as targets for Villain's Tx check-raise. I just don't see Tx as probable, unless he specifically has any KT, ATc, QTc, or JTc.

Much more likely that Villain has KT, TT, 55, AT, A5, 65, 54, or has clubs (Ax, KQ, QJ, QT, JT), with some combo draws (QJh, Q9h, J9h). We are only ahead of AT and the flush draws (with only two K river outs vs TT, none vs 55), and now reduced clean flush outs vs all of the possible trip-5 hands. Lots of bad river cards.

Describing the Villain's flop and turn checks as 'showing weakness' comes to a screeching halt when the perfectly-sized check/raise on the turn shows up. I don't think he's LAG-attacking perceived weakness on Hero's part, but rather value-betting his own very strong hand.

 

[wickedwonka121]

Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn:

Checks to HERO.

Action?

(Obviously betting at this point. But what sizing and how do we respond to calls and potentially check raises?)

Checking after the flop was a mistake. Makes no sense to check with top pair and nut flush draw.

 

[RagingAZN]

Poker is a game where mistakes on earlier streets compound to become bigger ones as the hand goes on.

I think in this case, by not betting the flop, we've put ourselves in a tough spot.

The CR is super strong and I don't think we're in a levelling war with the villains as described so probably have to puke-fold here.

I'm interested to hear your reasoning on the flop check, OP.

 

[BigJackJones]

I don't know how this is going to turn out for hero, but I know how it turns out for me. I panicked after the flop and shoved. One of those bastards had pocket fives and I go home to stare at my chips and decide if I should stick to knitting or something.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I don't know how this is going to turn out for hero, but I know how it turns out for me. I panicked after the flop and shoved. One of those bastards had pocket fives and I go home to stare at my chips and decide if I should stick to knitting or something.

Knit a dice chip while you're at it

 

[Frogzilla]

View attachment 1194562
Knit a dice chip while you're at it

714 wtf

 

[Legend5555]

I normally hold my comments on how I played a hand until the end of the thread. But I'll just say that while betting flop is certainly fine, I think checking is also okay for a variety of reasons. Some things to think about...

Which would want to be on the flop more often, black AK or my exact hand?
Or do you think both are 100% bets?
Do you use different sizings for them?
Do you think flop is a range bet into 3 players?
What hands can I have that would not want to c-bet flop?
Should we ever have slow plays on the flop?
Is the 5 actually a bad card?
How often would a player double check a big hand to the an in position raiser that already checked back the flop?

BACK TO THE HAND

Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $160.
Folds to seat 2 who raises to $480. Leaving only $340 behind.
HERO takes a minute and calls.

Pot: $1290 after rake.
Eff Stack: $340

River:

Seat 2 checks.

HERO?

 

[JMC9389]

What came on the river?

 

[Legend5555]

What came on the river?

Fixed

 

[chippitydoodah]

Fold

 

[JMC9389]

I'm taking my showdown value and checking. No need to get fancy here.

 

[ChipEnvy]

100% check. Not getting called by anything worse than your holding.

 

[Frogzilla]

it’s 25% pot isn’t it an easy bet?

 

[ngmcs8203]

This is a check on the river as played. What is interesting is that GTO wizard has you betting 60% of the time with AK of spades and AK of diamonds but calling with AK of hearts 99.5% of the time. He's checking with a jack, 10, a bad king and only a few 5s... and all of his misses.

 

[MrCatPants]

The river check is weird. Literally any card, even a Charizard or rules of poker comes out and he should be shoveling it in with both bluffs and value hands.

Check back, ain't getting called by worse outside of maybe kq

 

[JustinInMN]

Which would want to be on the flop more often, black AK or my exact hand?

I would rather have your exact hand but I am betting both

Or do you think both are 100% bets?

Yes

Do you use different sizings for them?

No

Do you think flop is a range bet into 3 players?

No

What hands can I have that would not want to c-bet flop?

This is tricky because I don't go for the big 3-bet here with medium strength all that often. I am going to flat pre with the playable k-hi and q-hi holdings, I am l probably only doing this 3-bet with AQs+, AKo, 99+. If I have anything "Weak" here it might be like A5s that I know at least blocks AA so I am usually not totally screwed if I run into real strength.

So it depends on the 3 bet range, but I think 99 and JJ are probably my checking range here if I get the green light on the flop. If I wanted to balance that with a "strong" check it would probably be AA with thee backdoor nfd.

But again, with loose unobservant players, I don't put a ton of stock into gto consideration.

Should we ever have slow plays on the flop?

Against players that are loose? I think the answer is a flat no.

Is the 5 actually a bad card?

This is a tough question, as loose as everyone is any card that pairs the board or fills a straight COULD be a bad card.

How often would a player double check a big hand to the an in position raiser that already checked back the flop?

Not very. And the check raise could very often be a response to the weakness hero showed on the flop.

 

[JustinInMN]

ot: $1290 after rake.
Eff Stack: $340

River:

Seat 2 checks.

HERO?

Why didn't villian lead the river? He has to know you are pretty pot stuck and you have something of value.

This really feels to me like villian made his move on the turn and is now hoping for a cheap showdown. It could be a Kx he planned to xr on the flop. It could be missed hearts.

The J isn't too scary for someone holding a 5x unless he would put hero on aq somehow?

I feel like we could try to get a call from Kx here, but I wouldn't fault a check too much I suppose.

 

[NeutronHim]

very player dependent. There are too many fish that a) x/r any king then decide thats enough value, and b) x/r value then decide they are randomly going to trap. You need to know exactly which one you are up against and make the obvious decision against that player type.

 

[JustinInMN]

Describing the Villain's flop and turn checks as 'showing weakness' comes to a screeching halt when the perfectly-sized check/raise on the turn shows up. I don't think he's LAG-attacking perceived weakness on Hero's part, but rather value-betting his own very strong hand.

To be clear hero's display of weakness on the flop is what I was trying to say in my comment.

Added info for Seat 2. Loves to try and squeeze or take advantage of any perceived weakness. Very active post flop with raises and check raises with a wide range of stuff.

This is part of the read we were provided. So I guess I am considering this when I say there are surely check raises with hands weaker than AK here.

 

[bergs]

He missed his club draw.

 

[bergs]

QJcc might call here. Shrug and stick in one fiddy.

 

[LeLe]

this felt so familiar, I saw a similar hand rundown like this yesterday too

 

[Kain8]

I'd just take my showdown value because I have no clue at all as to what we beat that can actually call a river bet. The villain will also have to table their hand first since they took the last aggressive action in the hand.

 

[BGinGA]

The villain will also have to table their hand first since they took the last aggressive action in the hand.

Actually, that only applies to the last agressive action taken in the current betting round, not the hand.

But villain would show first in this case (if hero checks), because with no agressive action on this street by either player, it defaults to the first-to-act player.