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PAHWM: AhKh in an action "$1/$3" game (3 Viewers)

Legend5555 said:
What are the reasons? What's the plan? (ie. Are we ever folding to any action?) What are we trying to get value from?
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Hero has flopped nearly as well as he could have barring a made hand. If betting the flop results in everyone folding, there was no more money to be made on further streets. With the table giving action to various degrees, checking this flop is disastrous especially with how shallow the effective SPR is.

Straight draws, inferior flush draws, and outkicked top pair hands are nearly compelled to call one street, and action players are even more prone to do that.
 
IF I WERE TO BUILD A CASE FOR CHECKING....

It would be so villain dependent on seat 8's crazy loose play preflop translates into aggressive play on the flop. (He can't stand to check when we he has the green light.) We don't have this read specifically, but there are players like this it might be worth checking to see if we can trap everyone in a huge pot. We would have to have to weigh that against the downside of this checking through where we would have collected one or two calls on the flop that might disappear on the turn. (Namely the Ax gutshots, maybe some of the Tx fold if a straight or flush card show up)

I don't think we have any plan to fold this in a million years, we are never drawing dead in this pot unless someone makes quads on the turn, and 55 is really the only set I think can be out given hero put the only voluntary raise in preflop. We will have at least some redraw even against a full house made on the turn.
 
MrCatPants said:
Whatever our standard cbet size is, do that. Those of you sizing based on the situation, that'll get you into trouble long term.

Also, would have probably popped pre to an even hundred. Punish the limpers.
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I do think 200 is a pretty good sizing given the size of the pot and our stake for most c-bets here. That said, if opponents are not observant, I wouldn't worry much about sizing tells.
 
Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with :ah::kh: and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop: :kc::th::5h:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn: :kc::th::5h::5c:

Checks to HERO.

Action?

(Obviously betting at this point. But what sizing and how do we respond to calls and potentially check raises?)
 
Legend5555 said:
Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with :ah::kh: and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop: :kc::th::5h:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn: :kc::th::5h::5c:

Checks to HERO.

Action?

(Obviously betting at this point. But what sizing and how do we respond to calls and potentially check raises?)
Click to expand...
Dont love the flop checkback. This flop was made for the range of an initial raiser and it might actually be harder to get called by a 10x hand on the turn.

Lead your c-bet sizing. 125-175? I'm probably betting 175 here to get more in the pot.

Calling all c/r as our flop check communicates relative weakness (underpair to the K, weak K, or whiffed Broadways bluff) and this player trying to pull a move, plus our hopeful flush draw and fh outs gives us equity against a hand like A5. If we are dead to 55 here, that's poker.
 
Legend5555 said:
Action?

(Obviously betting at this point. But what sizing and how do we respond to calls and potentially check raises?)
Click to expand...
I am going to advocate betting the same size I would have on the flop, about $200. I highly doubt we are against a full house or better given the preflop action and flop action, I'm playing AK for the best hand. Again, this sizing doesn't telegraph that we are committing to this pot so it may induce a bluff, we may get a crying call from other Kx (which I doubt given the flop action and turn action so far), and maybe Tx, maybe 66-99 even, surely QJ will call, and surely smaller hearts will still call. It's possible we let a 5x get there for free, that's definitely the downside of checking this flop. But I kind of doubt that too at this point unless the one player yet to act on the turn has it. But even so, there would be 10-11 outs to redraw against that. (8-9 Hearts and 2 aces)

Bet $200 and still play to get the money in if raised or plan to move in on a non-10 river if the door is open.
 
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FWIW, betting isn’t obvious to me on that card. If betting probably going pretty large, $250ish. I lean bet but I don’t think it’s obvious.

If check raised probably have to make a read and go off player history. A lot of players will just lead their bluffs on turn when flop was checked through, so check-raise is unusually strong. To be honest that spot would stress me out so I’d probably randomize it baseline 60/40 call but let my read and history move that from 80/20 to 20/80.
 
Frogzilla said:
FWIW, betting isn’t obvious to me on that card. If betting probably going pretty large, $250ish. I lean bet but I don’t think it’s obvious.

If check raised probably have to make a read and go off player history. A lot of players will just lead their bluffs on turn when flop was checked through, so check-raise is unusually strong. To be honest that spot would stress me out so I’d probably randomize it baseline 60/40 call but let my read and history move that from 80/20 to 20/80.
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With the given reads in the initial post that all of these players are some degree of loose, we need to exploit them for calling too much. Checking twice is the opposite of that. I personally think the bet was obvious on the flop, but given the choice to check, the bet is even more obvious on the turn. When are we going to start collecting when we flop this good? We didn't build this pot-pre to turtle up when we hit, or to be scared that a loose player has somehow found the check button twice with a 5x.

Sure there are times hero is going to lose this pot, that happens a lot with multi-way action, but we will still be ahead way more than our share and we need to build this pot to outweigh the times we lose.
 
I'm late to the party but I raise to $100 pre (5x + the limpers in a loose and splashy game). The way you described the game and how many callers you got after your raise, you get to raise big here and still get action.

That flop is great for your range and even better for your actual hand. No way I'm not betting here vs 3 villains that are known to play loose and splashy and are very deep.
You don't have to make it too big though since you cover most draws and have great showdown value already. Multi way I tend to go for 1/3rd pot. So I bet $110.

As played, I bet the turn but I bet it bigger than I would the flop. We missed our chance to bet/bet/all in and now need to get some value. No reason to think you're behind after everyone checking to you twice.
 
Legend5555 said:
Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.
Click to expand...

jumping-out-of-window.gif
 
Honest naive noob questions:

On the flop, can we discard pocket tens, because one of the villains would almost certainly have opened with that? What about pocket fives? That is certainly a limp hand.

I may be slow, but I do not understand the check on the flop. Is it not too risky to let a potential QJ get a free card? Or some random Kx that chases two pairs? Especially on a loose table?

Thanks!
 
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binoclard said:
Honest naive noob questions:

On the flop, can we discard pocket tens, because one of the villains would almost certainly have opened with that? What about pocket fives? That is certainly a limp hand.

I may be slow, but I do not understand the check on the flop. Is it not too risky to let a potential QJ get a free card? Or some random Kx that chases two pairs? Especially on a loose table?

Thanks!
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I am disregarding TT, and AA for sure. 55 is surely possible, and it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up being the reveal :P.

I personally prefer betting, but I think I put the best case possible for checking in post #32, above. Basically checking here might be worth the chance that the one player left to act will bet and trap all three opponents with loose calls. It's risky, and why I prefer the bet.
 
Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with :ah::kh: and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop: :kc::th::5h:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn: :kc::th::5h::5c:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $160.
Folds to seat 2 who raises to $480. Leaving only $340 behind.

Action?
 
Hate the flop check, and with the board pairing, we gave a free turn card to any A5, 65s, 54s, or 55 (not to mention the numerous straight draws, and all reasonable holdings) -- for no good reason. All would check the flop, and most would check this turn, too. Only a villain KT is leading here, protecting two pair from the (now) two flush draws.

This has instantly gone from 'a great juicy opportunity' to 'hope I can get to showdown cheap and still win'. I check.
 
Legend5555 said:
Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $160.
Folds to seat 2 who raises to $480. Leaving only $340 behind.

Action?
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I am sticking to the plan and I am going to move in here. I assume I am only going to be called by lesser hearts, and QJ as semi bluffs and maybe some Tx, maybe some Ax gutshot broadway/overcard semi bluffs are in villain's range too. (Which we crush) but most of those hands won't call a missed river. Time to collect from them is now. Also, just calling leaves so little behind that we aren't folding the river anyway, so again, time to go for it is now Villain may have a 5, that's the breaks. Villain will also have call rather widely against a shove for $340 more.
 
I lean fold, but jamming here is perfectly reasonable too. Call is about the worst thing that can be done. I already hate this turn card as it weakens potential flush draws. If hero calls and a heart comes on the river and villain jams, what do you do?
 
BGinGA said:
This has instantly gone from 'a great juicy opportunity' to 'hope I can get to showdown cheap and still win'. I check.
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I absolutely share your opinion on the flop action. We have reduced a powerhouse flop to a bluff catcher. I still think there is some value in betting the turn obviously, but that's mostly based on the reads in the OP that the villain's are all capable of calling lose or taking aggression against weakness.
 
BGinGA said:
Hate the flop check, and with the board pairing, we gave a free turn card to any A5, 65s, 54s, or 55 (not to mention the numerous straight draws, and all reasonable holdings) -- for no good reason. All would check the flop, and most would check this turn, too. Only a villain KT is leading here, protecting two pair from the (now) two flush draws.

This has instantly gone from 'a great juicy opportunity' to 'hope I can get to showdown cheap and still win'. I check.
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It was bet to him, 50% pot
 
Easy fold to the turn raise, imo. Should have bet that $160 on the flop. It's dead money as played.
 
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BGinGA said:
Legend5555 said:
Seat 7 is the button and has the $10 rock out.

Seat 8 in SB limps blind.
BB limps.
UTG limps.
Seat 1 limps.
Seat 2 limps.
Seat 3 folds.

HERO in LJ with :ah::kh: and raises to $80.
Seat 8, Seat 1, and Seat 2 all call. HERO is in position on all of them.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Flop: :kc::th::5h:

Checks to HERO.
HERO checks.

Pot: $330 after rake.
Eff Stack: $820

Turn: :kc::th::5h::5c:

Checks to HERO.
HERO bets $160.
Folds to seat 2 who raises to $480. Leaving only $340 behind.

Action?
Click to expand...

Read again. Checked to hero on flop, and checked to hero on turn.
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Weird. I’m not seeing that. I see this turn action only.

Edit. I’m an idiot. He got raised on the turn.
 
Since apparently my reading comp is near zero, my updated turn play. I would have bet bigger on the turn when checked to me. 75% or more. 50% was asking for a re-raise. I'm calling to bluff catch and hope for a good river. Raising all-in only gets called by better hands. If you catch a card on the river he can open. If you miss you fold.
 
Yeah, not sure how the flop is a check and the turn is an obvious bet. Regardless here we are, and I think it is just a math problem at this point right? There is 970 in the pot and it cost you 320 to call. You have 8 hearts (one could fill villian up so I don't count that) and 2 kings giving you 10 pretty clean outs, unless villian is already full.

Pot is giving you 3:1. Your outs are 4:1 and maybe much worse. Can you get more money out of him if you hit? Seat two is an action player and closed action pre-flop. Any number of combos containing a 5 and pocket pairs are in his range. Villian's story checks out so far, so I think it's safe to assume we are now behind. Smart play I think is fold, but I'm not smart and would probably call. River is check/fold on a miss and check/call on anything that helps us.
 

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