Play a short hand with Doug the supahnit. (1 Viewer)

[Mr Tree]

This hand is one my friend Doug had asked me about from the Iron Donkey Poker League last Saturday

Blinds 500/1000. About 17 players left of the original 28.

Crazy is acting in UTG +1. Crazy has a stack of about 35,000. Crazy fits the monikor. Willing to get it in with almost anything and capable of calling for his tournament life with hands like A2 or KQ

Hero- hero is a tight player with a good understanding of the game. Hero has a solid image and rarely raises without a worthy hand. Hero starts the hand with 20,400 in chips in mid position.

The other guy. This player is a very solid player who takes his game seriously. He understands the game although IMO he is prone to calling large bets sometimes that he should be capable of getting away from. The other guy starts in the cutoff with a stack of 20,800.

Crazy opens up the betting with a raise to 4000. Hero looks down at AK off. What should hero's bet be?

 

[kirchhausen]

Shove

 

[detroitdad]

This hand is one my friend Doug had asked me about from the Iron Donkey Poker League last Saturday

Blinds 500/1000. About 17 players left of the original 28.

Crazy is acting in UTG +1. Crazy has a stack of about 35,000. Crazy fits the monikor. Willing to get it in with almost anything and capable of calling for his tournament life with hands like A2 or KQ

Hero- hero is a tight player with a good understanding of the game. Hero has a solid image and rarely raises without a worthy hand. Hero starts the hand with 20,400 in chips in mid position.

The other guy. This player is a very solid player who takes his game seriously. He understands the game although IMO he is prone to calling large bets sometimes that he should be capable of getting away from. The other guy starts in the cutoff with a stack of 20,800.

Crazy opens up the betting with a raise to 4000. Hero looks down at AK off. What should hero's bet be?

You only have 20 x's the big blind. Shove > Fold. Calling is out of the question imo.

 

[Mr Tree]

You only have 20 x's the big blind. Shove > Fold. Calling is out of the question imo.

IS calling out of the question? I think people put a lot of stock in AK but any hand that calls a shove will either be dominating you or at worst 50/50. Against this hero almost everyone would throw away AQ or lower (except maybe Crazy)

 

[detroitdad]

IS calling out of the question? I think people put a lot of stock in AK but any hand that calls a shove will either be dominating you or at worst 50/50. Against this hero almost everyone would throw away AQ or lower (except maybe Crazy)

Let me rephrase it. Calling is out of the question for me. I will either shove or fold here. You are out of position. Shoving your last 20k could result in playing vs several opponents. If your read on the table is that your shove will get you to a heads up with crazy then I would do it. If you think you might be playing 3 + players for all your chips then I might, and I say "might" fold.

Of course I finished 19th out of 20 on SAT. What do I know (other than Jim H will call all his money with only an opened ended straight, then say that the hand probably played out the same no matter who bet/raised).

 

[kirchhausen]

You know your players better than I, but I often see worse Aces calling All-ins for less BBs. Not every player can lay down AQ or AJ, even if they are cognicent that the player who shoved is a nit.

BTW if the player gets that much respect, rather than not shoving with AK he should open up his shoving range and take advantage of all of the fold equity he has.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

How about just a raise to 10K?

Edit: never mind thought hero had 35k. Hero should shove.

 

[MikesDad]

If Crazy is as advertised, shove and hope to get it heads-up.

 

[MrBo]

+1 for shove all day every day. 20BB's is not deep enough to really play any differently here with a premium hand. We are well ahead of Crazy's raise-calling range and I'd be more than happy to embrace variance in this spot. We also don't want to just call and let other players call or squeeze behind and potentially create a multi-way pot (where I would still almost never fold btw).

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

IS calling out of the question? I think people put a lot of stock in AK but any hand that calls a shove will either be dominating you or at worst 50/50. Against this hero almost everyone would throw away AQ or lower (except maybe Crazy)

Well, first off you said except Crazy, but Crazy happens to be the person who raised so let's get it in. Also, what is the line that people decide to call with? If they fold all AQs and lower, do they call all pocket pairs, even deuces? It seems unlikely that they would call with all the hands he is flipping with, and fold all the hands he is beating. If all people really do fold all worse aces to him because of his image(I find this hard to believe), then they are also folding a significant amount of pocket pairs that he is flipping with, so there is some free money there.

Also, if hero flats, what does he do when the flop comes out without an ace or a king and he is bet into? As Lon McEachern says, it's tough to make a pair in hold 'em. One of the keys to tournament hold 'em, in my opinion, is to put your opponent into difficult spots where they have to make tough decisions. If he just calls here, he is likely putting himself in a difficult spot.

To sum it up, Jam that 20 bb stack into the middle all day every day.

 

[Mr Tree]

Hero bets 10,000 (a bet I vehemently disagree with but hey it is what it is.) the other guy jams the pot for 20,800.

Crazy folds.

Hero has to call his remaining 10,400 to win 35,900 which I consider an instacall so I won't make people chime in.

The other guy tables KK. Board runs out dry and hero is left sitting in the bar crying in his beer.

Is this just expected variance or is there any value to simply calling with AK here? AK is a hand I hate overvaluing personally and wonder if long term hero has a better return evaluating a flop than shoving blindly.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Just a cold deck, it happens. He had blockers to anyone else having Aces or Kings. Even if he flats, is he folding when the other guy squeezes all-in? if so, I may have to commute to Roswell for your home game (I was thinking about doing that anyway).

 

[MrBo]

In some situations where stacks are much much deeper it's more acceptable to fold AK pre or play it a little bit softer. This is far from one of those situations. Even if Hero just flats the raise pre I don't think it's +EV to ever fold to the other guy's shove unless we have an absolute soul read that he can only have AA or KK. Hero worrying about how he played his hand here and whether or not he could've gotten away is not much different in this spot than if it was KK vs. AA imo.

 

[kirchhausen]

It is just variance. With hero having AK as blockers, there are 3 possible combinations of KK and 3 possible combinations of AA, out of 1225 possible combinations the odds that any given player will have AA or KK is 0.41% The odds that 9 handed (8 other players) no one would have AA or KK would be (1-0.41%^8) so about 96.1% if my math is correct.

 

[Ben]

Well, certainly I know Hero and Villain is likely 1 of 2 that I have in mind - it depends. If Crazy is "Crazy Aggro Guy" then I'm shoving it all day long and not giving him his equity with 74o or whatever. If Crazy is "Crazy Loose-Passive/Random guy" I MIGHT consider flatting as he's pretty likely to play his hand face-up postflop.

If it were ME, I'd still ship it in regardless and peeps will call with AJo all day long. If I'm Doug, maybe I can find a fold later when the Other Guy (MrTree?) ships. Y'all really don't understand how nitty Doug is - I'm shocked that he didn't just open-fold AKo here. He must have been in a "gambling mood."

Oh and there's effectively no difference between making it 10k or shoving, so that's whatevs.

 

[Mr Tree]

Well, certainly I know Hero and Villain is likely 1 of 2 that I have in mind - it depends. If Crazy is "Crazy Aggro Guy" then I'm shoving it all day long and not giving him his equity with 74o or whatever. If Crazy is "Crazy Loose-Passive/Random guy" I MIGHT consider flatting as he's pretty likely to play his hand face-up postflop.

If it were ME, I'd still ship it in regardless and peeps will call with AJo all day long. If I'm Doug, maybe I can find a fold later when the Other Guy (MrTree?) ships. Y'all really don't understand how nitty Doug is - I'm shocked that he didn't just open-fold AKo here. He must have been in a "gambling mood."

Oh and there's effectively no difference between making it 10k or shoving, so that's whatevs.

Lol other guy wasn't me, I was at the other table! (So I'm not crazy either)


"Although I see how you could take my description for me with one minor alteration.
The other guy. This player is a very solid player who takes his game seriously. He understands the game although IMO he is prone to JAMMING POTS HE HAS NO BUSINESS BEING IN BECAUSE HE JUST KNOWS THE OTHER PLAYER IS WEAK. The other guy starts in the cutoff with a stack of 20,800."

And by knows the other guy is weak I mean "knows" the other guy is weak.

 

[Mr Tree]

By the way I sent the link to this thread to Doug and I think he fully embraces the nickname "Supahnit"

 

[Racer96]

Before I read any of the responses, this was going to be my reply.

Shove all day. Except when it's a strat post. Then it's a clear fold. Unless it's a humble brag. Which is less than 1% of the time in a strat post, so definite fold.

You just need to know in advance if you're going to be writing up a strat post about the hand or not.

Mike

 

[Ronoh]

Yes, it's a shove.

Beyond that, I don't disagree with the call after raising half his stack but this train of thought:

Hero has to call his remaining 10,400 to win 35,900 which I consider an instacall

has no place in tournament poker. When your tournament life is at stake pot odds go out the window.

 

[Mr Tree]

Yes, it's a shove.

Beyond that, I don't disagree with the call after raising half his stack but this train of thought:

has no place in tournament poker. When your tournament life is at stake pot odds go out the window.

I am never folding AK in this spot. You have to put the other guy dead on aces for it to make sense. We can debate that but I don't think many here would ever fold at that point.

 

[Ronoh]

I am never folding AK in this spot. You have to put the other guy dead on aces for it to make sense. We can debate that but I don't think many here would ever fold at that point.

As I said, I wouldn't either. My statement was for tournament poker in general, not this specific hand. Over the past 10+ years since tournament poker became popular I often hear people talking about "the math" when it comes to calling for their tournament life and could not disagree more.

 

[Trihonda]

By the way I sent the link to this thread to Doug and I think he fully embraces the nickname "Supahnit"

His new PCF name! Binding!

 

[Mr Tree]

As I said, I wouldn't either. My statement was for tournament poker in general, not this specific hand. Over the past 10+ years since tournament poker became popular I often hear people talking about "the math" when it comes to calling for their tournament life and could not disagree more.

I think you always have to say math and range but if the math supports calling where you range your opponent then I think you have to call.

 

[Mr Tree]

His new PCF name! Binding!

Love it.

 

[Supahnit]

So let it be written.. so let it be done.

 

[Mr Tree]

So let it be written.. so let it be done.

Hahaha! Awesome Doug!

 

[Ben]

Welcome to PCF, supahnit! [emoji41]

 

[Trihonda]

Now... to choose an avatar image...?

 

[Supahnit]

I am feeling much love in this forum.

 

[grandgnu]

Late to the party but I'm in the shove pre camp. Generallly when we're first-in with a stack of 10-12 bb's we're looking to shove. In this instance we have a stack of 20 bb's but it's been raised behind us. There is no comfortable raise we can make that allows us to get away post-flop (pot committed) and just calling is super weak given where we are in the tourney and the premium nature of our hand, make people pay to outdraw you AND don't forget we still have fold equity in this spot.

As played, once hero puts half his stack in, never folding.

Early in a tourney I'm fine with not overplaying AK, in this spot, we should be shoving 100% of the time based on the description in the OP. If we aren't, we are doing it wrong.