Poll: the new generation of ceramics should have their own section on PCF (3 Viewers)

[DirtyTIVA]

Damn, this pic would be so much better with a Tina chip and a Honda though

What do you mean? That is @quintooo ‘s Honda. The one that got a parking citation. Also shout out to @BarrieJ3 for WAB2 2023!!!

 

[FestiveKnight]

Believe it. I said the same thing before tina chips were even a known thing and @SeanGecko sent me samples years ago.

I’m sure most join looking for an upgrade from the typical home game chips. Never anticipated the journey this would take me on or the relationships formed.

And this was exactly my point a few pages ago and why I support not just metadata but also some amount of bifurcation. Knowledgeable users can use metadata to find what they need but noobs can’t and especially with Tina chips in the mix, there is a PCF journey that looks like a short stop in the China plastics section and then right to the off ramp. Classifieds content catering to that journey should have its own dedicated home. Away from the classifieds content for people engaging with chipping in a very different way.

 

[upNdown]

I'm sorry if I am being thick, I am new to this world, but who exactly is being "pickpocketed" in this analogy? BR pro? sunfly? CPC? casinos? For myriad reasons I fail to appreciate your analogy. If anything couldn't it be argued that BR/Sunfly are the pickpockets of the consumers here as it has been demonstrated (by Tina et al.) that their production process can be very closely replicated for an order of magnitude cheaper cost than they are charging?

I'm sure the casino industry/lobby has enough money to "speak up" for themselves if they feel it is a real issue.

I agree that it would be a bad thing for small niche businesses to dry up due to overseas competition, but again, isn't that the free market (that you laude in your signature line) just doing its job?

Hypothetically, if it could be demonstrated that compression molded clay chips of a similar quality to CPC etc. can be made and sold for << than the $2-5/chip range wouldn't that just highlight price gouging? Economy of scale makes a huge difference and im sure Paulson and others are cutting the casinos a huge deal for their large orders... Chinese manufacturers might actually have stiff competition to begin with on that large scale.

I've seen it time and time again in many niche hobbies: the people who believe China=bad will buy expensive USA products and the other people will buy from china if they see something they like. There will always be a market for so called "patriotic consumers" so i think that this is all just a non-issue to begin with

Um, my signature line is a joke. Those are the words of another member who was mocking me. So I threw them in my signature line. I should probably delete them.
You’re reading too far into the analogy. You said the casinos should watch out for themselves. I’m saying we should watch out for one another. If there is a right and a wrong (and I think there is) then we should all speak up when somebody does something wrong that harms somebody else.

And yeah if you’re new, you probably haven’t considered this issue from all angles. Yeah the casino is having its IP ripped off and that is wrong. But I’m not just worried about the casinos’ bank accounts. What happens when somebody buys these chips thinking they’re real? Up until a few months ago, if you bought a poker chip with a hat and cane on it, you could rest assured you were buying a Paulson. Some people even use “hat and cane” and Paulson interchangeably.
But now you can order chips on a practically identical hat and cane mold in a design that’s an exact copy of a casino chip (live or retired) and sell them to some unsuspecting buyer for 5x their worth as Paulsons. Or maybe when you ordered the copies just for your home game, but you due. Then your wife lists your poker chips on eBay and somebody buys them thinking they’re buying real Paulsons. Or, back to the casinos, maybe somebody slips one into a poker game and the guy who wins that pot tries to cash out? He’s probably spending a long time in some back room at best.

Those are some of problems that arise when people make these copies. So yeah I’m speaking out, and not just to cover the casino’s butt.

 

[Nogbert]

Um, my signature line is a joke. Those are the words of another member who was mocking me. So I threw them in my signature line. I should probably delete them.
You’re reading too far into the analogy. You said the casinos should watch out for themselves. I’m saying we should watch out for one another. If there is a right and a wrong (and I think there is) then we should all speak up when somebody does something wrong that harms somebody else.

And yeah if you’re new, you probably haven’t considered this issue from all angles. Yeah the casino is having its IP ripped off and that is wrong. But I’m not just worried about the casinos’ bank accounts. What happens when somebody buys these chips thinking they’re real? Up until a few months ago, if you bought a poker chip with a hat and cane on it, you could rest assured you were buying a Paulson. Some people even use “hat and cane” and Paulson interchangeably.
But now you can order chips on a practically identical hat and cane mold in a design that’s an exact copy of a casino chip (live or retired) and sell them to some unsuspecting buyer for 5x their worth as Paulsons. Or maybe when you ordered the copies just for your home game, but you due. Then your wife lists your poker chips on eBay and somebody buys them thinking they’re buying real Paulsons. Or, back to the casinos, maybe somebody slips one into a poker game and the guy who wins that pot tries to cash out? He’s probably spending a long time in some back room at best.

Those are some of problems that arise when people make these copies. So yeah I’m speaking out, and not just to cover the casino’s butt.

thank you for the thoughtful response. Sorry I mischaracterized/misunderstood your argument.

I am in full agreement that there should be more transparency in classifieds to prevent unknowledgeable people from getting duped so i think requiring a material tag in listings would go a long way to help with any issues.

 

[KHarp1]

I'm sorry if I am being thick, I am new to this world, but who exactly is being "pickpocketed" in this analogy? BR pro? sunfly? CPC? casinos? For myriad reasons I fail to appreciate your analogy. If anything couldn't it be argued that BR/Sunfly are the pickpockets of the consumers here as it has been demonstrated (by Tina et al.) that their production process can be very closely replicated for an order of magnitude cheaper cost than they are charging?

I'm sure the casino industry/lobby has enough money to "speak up" for themselves if they feel it is a real issue.

I agree that it would be a bad thing for small niche businesses to dry up due to overseas competition, but again, isn't that the free market (that you laude in your signature line) just doing its job?

Hypothetically, if it could be demonstrated that compression molded clay chips of a similar quality to CPC etc. can be made and sold for << than the $2-5/chip range wouldn't that just highlight price gouging? Economy of scale makes a huge difference and im sure Paulson and others are cutting the casinos a huge deal for their large orders... Chinese manufacturers might actually have stiff competition to begin with on that large scale.

I've seen it time and time again in many niche hobbies: the people who believe China=bad will buy expensive USA products and the other people will buy from china if they see something they like. There will always be a market for so called "patriotic consumers" so i think that this is all just a non-issue to begin with

Forgive me if others have posted while I'm writing, but, there are many things to consider here when talking about "Tina" and BRPro and Sunfly. BR and Sunfly have paid for the artwork they use. They have bought the designs and have rights to produce the artwork on their chips. Tina steals much of their artwork, or, reproduces it without rights. They have little invested in design compared to other reputable manufacturers.

BR and Sunfly have tighter quality control. I've tried a few sets of Tina chips to see what they were about, but, could not live with the level of quality. Some can.

Any issues with BR (and I use BR because I have experience) and they work to make it right out of concern for their brand. I wonder what would happen if every spinner or misaligned print were sent back to Tina?

I like giving my money to American businesses that stand behind their product. Its worth a little more to me for the piece of mind that my order be right, or, made right.

BR and Sunfly aren't picking anyone's pocket, they're offering a quality product at a fair price. Tina is picking pockets by using stolen property. They're stealing and cutting others out of what is rightfully theirs.

 

[BarrieJ3]

What do you mean? That is @quintooo ‘s Honda. The one that got a parking citation. Also shout out to @BarrieJ3 for WAB2 2023!!!

Woooooooooooooooo Wab! Wab! Wab! Wab!

 

[BarrieJ3]

What do you mean? That is @quintooo ‘s Honda. The one that got a parking citation. Also shout out to @BarrieJ3 for WAB2 2023!!!

 

[warma]

So what would go into that separate market place? Ceramics? All ceramics? Or just Alibaba ceramics?

If I make a custom design (not a tribute or knock-off) on plain BR Pro ceramics, which marketplace would it go it? What if that same design was on a plain Alibaba ceramic? How about a custom design on a SunFly cards mold chip? Or custom design Alibaba cards mold chip?

How would buyers know if they were BR Pro or Alibaba?

So what would the rules be?
Are we really trying to isolate Alibaba manufacturers? In which case how do we enforce it on unique designs?
Are we trying to block out tributes? In which case, what do we do with BR Pro, SunFly, or CPC tributes?
Are we trying to block Alibaba scrowns? Alibaba scrown knock-offs?

What about high end plastics (BG, Matsui, Bud Jones, etc)?

And what does a separate marketplace give us? What are we really solving for?

 

[FestiveKnight]

So what would the rules be?

• Plastic chips costing $1.50/chip and less
• Plastic chips costing above $1.50/chip
• Clay chips costing $3.50/chip and less
• Clay chips costing above $3.50/chip

I feel like enough people have genuinely engaged in the actual question of the thread (myself included) that I won’t answer the rest of your questions but I’ll just bump this one again.

I’d love to understand what issues if any folks have with this proposal to help iterate and improve it.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

• Plastic chips costing $1.50/chip and less
• Plastic chips costing above $1.50/chip
• Clay chips costing $3.50/chip and less
• Clay chips costing above $3.50/chip

I feel like enough people have genuinely engaged in the actual question of the thread (myself included) that I won’t answer the rest of your questions but I’ll just bump this one again.

I’d love to understand what issues if any folks have with this proposal to help iterate and improve it.

Would be interesting to see the price bell curve change due to this; $3.55 per chip would suddenly look much cheaper.

Not saying you're wrong, just an unintended consequence of binning by prices.

 

[ekricket]

Would be interesting to see the price bell curve change due to this; $3.55 per chip would suddenly look much cheaper.

Not saying you're wrong, just an unintended consequence of binning by prices.

I can imagine the “report this” button - “he’s listing a chip for $1.55 and it’s really a $1.45 chip”. Admins would love this

 

[warma]

• Plastic chips costing $1.50/chip and less
• Plastic chips costing above $1.50/chip
• Clay chips costing $3.50/chip and less
• Clay chips costing above $3.50/chip

I feel like enough people have genuinely engaged in the actual question of the thread (myself included) that I won’t answer the rest of your questions but I’ll just bump this one again.

I’d love to understand what issues if any folks have with this proposal to help iterate and improve it.

Why price? Why those values? Do we adjust for inflation?

What if I want to sell a set of B&Gs with the following cost, I have to split the set in sales? Is that fair to the buyer? The seller?
5s at $0.50/chip
25s at $0.75/chip
100s at $1.10/chip
43mm 500s at $4.50/chip

So we want to isolate Alibaba ceramics, but lump them with B&G? What’s the logic?

 

[chippitydoodah]

Vegas shifting to Hot Stamps.....
@Josh Kifer

 

[FestiveKnight]

Why price? Why those values? Do we adjust for inflation?

What if I want to sell a set of B&Gs with the following cost, I have to split the set in sales? Is that fair to the buyer? The seller?
5s at $0.50/chip
25s at $0.75/chip
100s at $1.10/chip
43mm 500s at $4.50/chip

So we want to isolate Alibaba ceramics, but lump them with B&G? What’s the logic?

Thank you. This is great stuff so we can keep improving the idea.

My general goal was to use something that accomplished the same goal as splitting by manufacture without having to get into the politics and nuance of that.

As much as a general hierarchy among chip types exists there’s certainly not a universal one. Price helps create groupings. Lakeshores and Tinas or Mapes and Majestics are completely different products. You don’t expect to find an area for Uniqlo at Saks.

As I said in my first post, the prices are a straw man. There’s meant to be some push back so we can discuss and try and find consensus. My goal generally was to find a price breakpoint that would be useful to differentiate between different markets/consumers.

Adjusting for inflation I think we can easily dismiss. Chips don’t perfectly peg to inflation. It’s a community. We (theoretically) can change things when they feel worthy of change, with no need to use inflation as a reference point.

Your example is an interesting case I hadn’t considered when quickly making my straw man. The rule could require using the average, the highest, the lowest, or something else. This is worth some thought.

Optimally PCF has extensive metadata, I don’t if that’s possible or if the admins are interested in implementing that.

I also have a concern, as I posted above, that metadata is really most valuable to more knowledge users and a lot of this “problem” is really about newer members who I think are the bulk of the market for cheaper chips.

The goal is for the right people to easily end up in the right place and for people to see the content they’re most interested in without becoming disengaged by content they’re not. I, and some others (many?), have no interest in buying Tina chips. As such, it wouldn’t be a bad thing for me if they were elsewhere. The inverse is true for super expensive chips and most of the people here, respectively.

So what prices help accomplish that? A premium set of Abbiatis are for a different consumer than Tina’s. So we could find a break point that generally differentiates that.

Again, I think that by manufacturer is much much cleaner but I’m not sure it’s easier for new users who are honestly most of the churn for cheaper stuff. But maybe I’m underestimating the average new user.

I can imagine the “report this” button - “he’s listing a chip for $1.55 and it’s really a $1.45 chip”. Admins would love this

This seems like a silly concern. Thread crapping isn’t allowed. That’s just thread crapping, and not a new problem originating from my proposed system.

Would be interesting to see the price bell curve change due to this; $3.55 per chip would suddenly look much cheaper.

Not saying you're wrong, just an unintended consequence of binning by prices.

This is interesting. I think the similar point is how does it warp pricing of chips if sellers feel the need to inflate chips to get into the next category.

Maybe this idea is bad all together. I’m fine if that’ a the conclusion. But if some people (who this poll indicates are a minority) want an alternative. Let’s talk about that rather than bitching about IP

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This is interesting. I think the similar point is how does it warp pricing of chips if sellers feel the need to inflate chips to get into the next category.

Maybe this idea is bad all together. I’m fine if that’ a the conclusion. But if some people (who this poll indicates are a minority) want an alternative. Let’s talk about that rather than bitching about IP

Not attacking at all, just good thinking. Its like the bell curve of self reported mens height: there's a spike at 6'0 where there shouldnt be cause it sounds better lol, or when cocaine was a felony over a certain gram amount? Magically the bell curve changes, and there was an odd spike of exactly that much when cops reported what they found on criminals! We as humans see bins and we use that as a small-medium-large, or unworthy-worthy. People who may otherwise sell starbursts under a certain price may increase them to meet the better category threshold.

Believe the chips will be similar, prices may use whatever binned prices and hover above or below them. Not good or bad in my mind, just data hounding.

 

[ekricket]

This seems like a silly concern.

Maybe this idea is bad all together.

It is a silly concern because this is a silly topic with a silly proposed solution.
Any hard data on the enhanced user experience when auctions were split out? Did it change how often anyone (everyone) using the “latest posts” button?

Looks like (hopefully) there is an improved version of the classifieds coming that may have filterable fields such as price, condition, manufacturer, location, etc… Which means a standard format and forms to fill out and other eBay like touches.

But honestly it doesn’t matter. Chippers going to chip how they want. I’m only replying to this because I don’t have any chips coming from underground sources and I’m bored. Networks are better than classifieds, and when you further compartmentalize the site and your interactions with others on it it hampers your network development. The classifieds on this site aren’t the whole poker chip world.
Why are people arguing for limits? Easier to predict and control? I get there is a ton of data that could be gathered and used to normalize and standardize everyone’s experience. But imho, and in the polls opinion, maybe that’s not what draws people here. Did you come here for the uniformity of the classifieds?

 

[chippitydoodah]

In the future, gambling addiction and chip collecting allow Paulson Poker chips to replace all world currencies, and GPI dominates the planet. Tina sends @timinater back to 2019 where he and @justincarothers must weaken the Paulson stronghold by creating and distributing Cards Mold chips. In the week of September 11th, 2023 GPI is crippled when a Cards Mold Aria's $500 chip is cashed. This distraction allows for a cyber attack on MGM which alters the future and GPI never grows in power which restores World Order.

 

[mipevi]

Just from my personal point of view, over 99% of the classifieds ads are of zero interest to me, apart from maybe taking a look at the pics. So if there was a way to sort by manufacturer etc. what gets inserted into my ’new posts’ feed then great. There would still be times when the posters fudge up some details by mistake or lack of knowledge, but I guess that’s on them.

 

[improviseallday]

Ceramics are not overrunning the classifieds. I went through and "tagged" the front page of the classifieds. Paulsons (green) represent the vast majority of listings on the front page right now. Material tags are welcome but IMO it's most helpful for people who aren't trading clay chips.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This binning would make it really awkward when I list The Ice Cardroom no-molds for $6/chip, @bernielomax is going to report me.

 

[ekricket]

This binning would make it really awkward when I list The Ice Cardroom no-molds for $6/chip, @bernielomax is going to report me.

This seems like a silly concern. Thread crapping isn’t allowed. That’s just thread crapping, and not a new problem

 

[GreekRedEye]

TLDR; Tina ceramics bring in new members; some stick around and level up; combined classifieds are good for noobs but tagged would be better - binned would be worse

As a noob/new chipper who has been pulled in to the chipping game over the last 3 months, if it weren't for Tina chips, I would not have joined PCF.

My desire to upgrade dice chips led me to Chris Manzoni's youtube who practically forced me to check out PCF forum. I wanted customs but CPC (and even BRProPoker) customs was way over my budget. I grudgingly settled on china clays with plan to print custom labels when I discovered @justincarothers group buys. I joined specifically to put in an order and get advice on design file setup (thanks @Colquhoun ) and tournament breakdown (thanks @BGinGA ).

I have since read and engaged (bumbled around more than engaging perhaps) on PCF than I expected. With education (indoctrination? ) now real clay prices don't seem so ridiculous to me. Seeing classifieds side by side has been the main avenue for that education. Tagged would have helped me immensely. Separated into different forums would have hurt.

CPC did not lose business from me. In fact, I am looking to buy from them in the near future because of my journey - a journey I would not have taken without the Tina on ramp. If anyone lost business here, it was BRProPoker or Apache on my initial purchase. I have since patronized several vendors (BRProPoker, @The Chip Exchange, @Spinettis Gaming , @Key West) and expect to patronize more (@TheChipRoom when there is a new offering, CPC for some Rounders, @Gear for a project I have brewing, @Apache for a set of throw around CCs, and @Josh Kifer if I ever need a hitman).

 

[Poker Zombie]

I really don't see a ceramics filter or sub-set of the classifieds as compartmentalizing or bifurcating the site. The classifieds are a big store, with numerous isles. There are plenty of other threads on PCF where the social aspects occur and we stay unified as a community.

As for networking, nobody is restricting anyone from visiting both segments of the site.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I really don't see a ceramics filter or sub-set of the classifieds as compartmentalizing or bifurcating the site. The classifieds are a big store, with numerous isles. There are plenty of other threads on PCF where the social aspects occur and we stay unified as a community.

As for networking, nobody is restricting anyone from visiting both segments of the site.

The fuck are we unified about? Got my mother threatened when I mentioned I preferred $25 chips to $20!

 

[ekricket]

As for networking, nobody is restricting anyone from visiting both segments of the site.

But it’s easier this way for a set of people.

That’s the whole rationale for binning, it makes it easier for a different set of people.

Even as it is now I have to use the latest posts feature to keep up.
There are currently 81 main thread titles to check on. That’s just the main headers with thousands of sub threads under them. You think we need more?

BTW you can filter out the classifieds. Check the filter button on the main tab, and the select only the threads you want to see. Just leave the classifieds and vendors unchecked.
But right now you have to check about 71 boxes to filter.

 

[improviseallday]

BTW you can filter out the classifieds. Check the filter button on the main tab, and the select only the threads you want to see. Just leave the classifieds and vendors unchecked.
But right now you have to check about 71 boxes to filter.

The new posts view is 100x better when you filter out classifieds, auctions, and intro threads.

Just get notifications for new classifieds and auction threads and check intro threads every once in a while.

 

[ekricket]

The new posts view is 100x better when you filter out classifieds, auctions, and intro threads.

Just get notifications for new classifieds and auction threads and check intro threads every once in a while.

We need to configure the whole site like this for everyone as a default whether they want it or not because it’s just so great for at least you. Let’s start a poll and do it!!

 

[Poker Zombie]

The fuck are we unified about? Got my mother threatened when I mentioned I preferred $25 chips to $20!

We are unified in our opposition. I mean, I love @ekricket, but I don't know if you can find 3 posts where we are in agreement.

...and the $20 is better for low-stakes games where a typical rebuy/top-off is $20 or less. If the rebuys are $100 or more, the $25 is the better chip (as long as the $25 is not yellow)

 

[warma]

Ceramics are not overrunning the classifieds. I went through and "tagged" the front page of the classifieds. Paulsons (green) represent the vast majority of listings on the front page right now. Material tags are welcome but IMO it's most helpful for people who aren't trading clay chips.

View attachment 1196102

And only 1 of the ceramics is from Alibaba.

 

[NeutronHim]

Just tag posts as china ceramics/ceramics/clay. Otherwise you run the risk of fragmenting the classifieds which might hasten their death. Seeing lots of daily posts is good for morale, too.