The politics of dealing with a cheater (2 Viewers)

[timinater]

The point is he abused our trust and I’m trying to decide how to not let that destroy the group.

You can influence how this impacts the game downstream, but you are not in control of it. Nor are you responsible for the consequences of someone else's actions. You'll feel the effects though and that's unfortunate.

 

[Mr Winberg]

His angle comes from either manipulating the passing of the deck, so it doesn’t get cut; or, when it does get cut, he at least knows what cards were close to the bottom before they were cut.

So he has more information, correct? Regarding this:

he tends to target the less-frequent and less-popular members of the group. He is more careful not to screw over me as host, or his more valued friends, at least not very often.

How do you mean that he doesn't use this information against his friends?

 

[Taghkanic]

True that there is no way to ensure a good outcome. I’m just trying to optimize the outcome for less-terrible results. A sort of social pot control, if you will.

 

[links_slayer]

See the OP. Yes. He is good friends with the other regs. People are looking forward to his upcoming wedding. Many of my regs socialize with him outside the game. His lifelong best friend plays in the game as well.

OP was kinda TL;DR and you've been vague when it comes to providing additional details so....

I'll continue to bite.

What are you worried about? The game dissolving because you called out someone's (or several someone's) best friend for being a cheat?

 

[bigdonkey]

I don’t think it has much bearing — whether it’s bottom-dealing or stacking decks or other angles, the problem is the same. But FWIW, what we have observed is him previewing cards while he shuffles (in an “overhand” way, not riffling) and moving cards to the bottom in such a way that he gains information about the hand.

He often tries to circumvent the shuffle-behind method I switched to when this first was detected (for years the dealer shuffled his own deck) by passing the deck directly to the next dealer rather than to the cutter. But even when it is cut, he still has the advantage of knowing what cards are more or less likely to come into play.

So it is not a “cold decking” situation, but gaining an edge through knowledge of card addition/subtraction from the deal. For a very smart player like him, this can be really huge. And, like Postle, his astonishingly good results reflect it.

So he is previewing the cards while overhand shuffling? Point out the flaws in that method of shuffling and force him to riffle?

 

[Taghkanic]

So he has more information, correct? Regarding this:

How do you mean that he doesn't use this information against his friends?

Sure, we are all victims. But through close observation over the past couple of months, I notice that he is much less likely to push any advantage against players he is more close to. (He also shows a lot of disdain for certain players with whom he doesn’t socialize outside the game, and these are his main victims. I have had to ask him privately in the past to be less condescending and insulting to these players. He has admitted explicitly that he likes to antagonize them to get loose calls.)

In a tourney, all it takes is a couple of really sick hands to go very deep. His amazing double-ups rarely come against his best buddies. All it takes is a major edge once per orbit, when he is two behind the dealer.

 

[Eloe2000]

The only reason why other players would leave the game is because they believe this person (the "cheat"), not you. Or believe that you are not handling the situation appropriately.

Straight forward directness is what you need. But I already feel like you have lost a little bit of that credibility by not addressing this publicly earlier. Not that you needed to be confrontational, but just brought odd behavior up publicly. And now it seems that you have come to your own conclusion and are dictating an outcome for a group which other players may not like (right or wrong) based on conclusions that they may not agree with. If this were me I would have just called this out publicly as soon as I started seeing it as it happens. "Hey man... keep your eyes off the bottom of that deck" etc. Not too confrontational, but enough to put him on a soft warning and to naturally alert the other players to keep an eye on him. Repeated soft warnings will push the resolution as a group, not just you alone. Now it will be up to you to convince all of the players of your conclusion based only on your observations. That is a somewhat high bar and these were very small manipulations that most players are not going to recollect.

 

[MaxB]

scenario 1) you call him out, he denys, he leaves and his friends follow

scenario 2) you talk to him privately, he denys it, tells his friends that you are a douche, they all leave

scenario 3) you kick him out without explanation, his friends leave

sceanrio 4) you talk to the friends first, they call BS, everyone leaves

I don't see any good outcome to this so it really doesn't matter how you do it

 

[toynoob]

It’s been emphasized. But in a social home game, unless someone watches like a hawk every hand, it can get through.

And, as already stated, he gains and advantage whether the cut happens or not

Again: I’m not looking for advice about how to stop him cheating. He’s going to be expelled either way.

The question is about how to handle the group.

I would not use the word cheating for starters when talking to the group. I would say "we have been observing malt lickey angle whenever he has the option too. For this reason I no longer will be inviting him. This is for the protection of all of you." If his friends deny it so be it, you are going down with the captain instead of getting on the life raft.

 

[Taghkanic]

OP was kinda TL;DR and you've been vague when it comes to providing additional details so....

Please read the original post and the thread. I’ve been specific about both.

 

[moose]

If you know you are going to lose players from banning the guy then I would 100% put it on the player.

As in, I would email the player and tell him that you know that he gains an advantage from the way he shuffles. Tell him in the future that everyone is required to properly riffle shuffle and cut the deck so that no-one can gain an advantage and keep it fair to everyone. Send a second email to everyone in the group explaining only proper shuffling and dealing requirements but make no mention about cheating.

In the first email tell him that if he refuses to shuffle and cut properly then he can no longer be in the game and make it his choice. If he no longer returns then you can explain to everyone at your next game that the guy left the game because he wasn't willing to follow proper procedures and that it was his decision to not return. If he returns and reverts to his old ways then take the deck from him and shuffle for him the rest of the night and tell him it is his last game. If the other players object then you can explain how he is using it to gain an advantage over the other players and why proper shuffling procedures are now necessary. I wouldn't ever use the word cheating and leave it to everyone else to draw their own conclusions.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't see any good outcome to this so it really doesn't matter how you do it

Heh. You may be right. One thing that helps is that the guy I enlisted to help watch is (a) a winning player, who can’t be accused of sour grapes; (b) good friends with the cheat himself; and (c) respected by the group.

 

[David O]

Worst thing to do is out him in front of his peers. How he is cheating really has no bearing of how you should deal with him personally. We oft times do not think how, what we do will impact that person especially in front of his peers. I would call a meeting with that person and tell him what you have observed. I would then offer home the opportunity on how to correct this situation. If he doe snot want to adhere to what you come up with as a resolution then that is on him and then ask him not to attend any more.

This type of situation is much different if he is not a long time friend. Much like in a casino they just ask you to leave and bar you for life. Here it is a different matter.

I personally would give a friend the respect, cheater or not, to allow him to offer a solution on how to correct this.

David

 

[stevea]

Tell him there have been a few complaints about his shuffling style by random people and they think he has an advantage and that he needs change his shuffle style. If he asks tell him it was from non regulars so there’s no issues with regulars and now you’ve watched him shuffle and can see their point.
Also point out you don’t want to turn people off from the game so please don’t do what he’s been doing. That way if he goes back to doing it again you can tell him he’s out and he’ll know why. He won’t have as much of an argument.
If he’s really doing it intentionally maybe your suggestion and the fact people are aware will make him reconsider. Or maybe his conscience will kick in and he’ll change his ways.

 

[Himewad]

Then I'd say you bring it to the group as a whole. Get everyone's opinions just as you have done with this thread. Make a decision based on that. Do not speak for your group, let them speak for themselves.

I kind of like this plan of action, with a twist. E-mail everyone in the group, but do it individually - one e-mail per person. Include sending an e-mail to the accused cheater. The e-mail will be the same to every person. Tell them that concerns were raised about a specific member in the group, that you and another person were charged with doing your own observations, and that you both agreed there was some unwanted behavior going on during deals.

You can ask everyone - individually - what they think should be done. But definitely include the accused cheater to see what his reaction is.

 

[David O]

If you know you are going to lose players from banning the guy then I would 100% put it on the player.

As in, I would email the player and tell him that you know that he gains an advantage from the way he shuffles. Tell him in the future that everyone is required to properly riffle shuffle and cut the deck so that no-one can gain an advantage and keep it fair to everyone. Send a second email to everyone in the group explaining only proper shuffling and dealing requirements but make no mention about cheating.

In the first email tell him that if he refuses to shuffle and cut properly then he can no longer be in the game and make it his choice. If he no longer returns then you can explain to everyone at your next game that the guy left the game because he wasn't willing to follow proper procedures and that it was his decision to not return. If he returns and reverts to his old ways then take the deck from and shuffle for him the rest of the night and tell him it his last game. If the other players object then you can explain how he is using it to gain an advantage over the other players and why proper shuffling procedures are now necessary. I wouldn't ever use the word cheating and leave it to everyone else to draw their own conclusions.

I would agree with this but if he is a "friend" then a face to face is the way to go. People sometimes read or write emails or letters that are not understood correctly.

 

[Taghkanic]

An additional note of interest: I had heard that another game in my area broke up because of accusations of cheating against this person. I always assumed it was just people blaming their weak play on someone else. (He really is a smart card player; I’ve learned a lot talking strategy with him.) Now I agree he is at best taking an unfair edge.

 

[shorticus]

Tell him there have been a few complaints about his shuffling style by random people and they think he has an advantage and that he needs change his shuffle style. If he asks tell him it was from non regulars so there’s no issues with regulars and now you’ve watched him shuffle and can see their point.
Also point out you don’t want to turn people off from the game so please don’t do what he’s been doing. That way if he goes back to doing it again you can tell him he’s out and he’ll know why. He won’t have as much of an argument.

My only issue with being indirect is that you can’t predict his response. When you take this route, you subject yourself to being exposed and accused of lying. You can’t afford to lose credibility when you’re accusing someone of cheating.

 

[moose]

I forgot to add that if he comes and refuses to shuffle properly and you then ban him, after the game, you then copy the first email to everyone in the group and explain he was warned and given the chance to mend his ways and he refused.

 

[Mr Winberg]

out him in front of his peers.

Hear, hear!! Public shaming FTW!

Sorry. I'm immature and can't help myself

 

[shorticus]

An additional note of interest: I had heard that another game in my area broke up because of accusations of cheating against this person. I always assumed it was just people blaming their weak play on someone else. (He really is a smart card player; I’ve learned a lot talking strategy with him.) Now I agree he is at best taking an unfair edge.

This adds an entirely different dimension imo.

 

[David O]

Hear, hear!! Public shaming FTW!

Sorry. I'm immature and can't help myself

FAKE NEWS! LOL

My original Quote was

Worst thing to do is out him in front of his peers.

 

[stevea]

Yeah if he’s already been accused then he shouldn’t be surprised. You can say you’ve been made aware by players and you can see their complaints. If he doesn’t stop from there then he’s out.

 

[Josh Kifer]

So, bud... We need to talk about your dealing... *grabbing waterboarding bucket*

 

[toynoob]

So, bud... We need to talk about your dealing... *grabbing waterboarding bucket*

I prefer taking digits one at a time from the knuckle up. Usually after the first one they decide to admit and promise to quit.

 

[stevea]

Friends are friends but if I found out any of my friends (close or not) were cheating a game I’d say something myself. And if they got kicked out of a game for it I wouldn’t have any issues with the game for it. If his friends get upset and leave I’d wonder if maybe they were in on it also. Nobody should be ok with cheating a game friend or not.

 

[QuiQuog]

So, you're going to boot him from the game, regardless. You think that if you do it right you will lose just 2-3 regs. You think that if you do it wrong you may lose 6-8.

If he's such a great friend, you should really talk to him before you boot him. Explain that you know what he's doing and demand that he change the way he shuffles or he's out. Make him do a table riffle like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFs3XJSA6vI That way he can't see the cards. Also let him know that the reasons for not suffling your own deck and the cut, that it's non-negotiable, and you're watching him. Don't tell him who the watchers are.

I think that's the only way to keep your game intact. He may just decide to leave on his own.

 

[links_slayer]

An additional note of interest: I had heard that another game in my area broke up because of accusations of cheating against this person. I always assumed it was just people blaming their weak play on someone else. (He really is a smart card player; I’ve learned a lot talking strategy with him.) Now I agree he is at best taking an unfair edge.

And you're worried about the same happening to your group? (asking for the 2nd time)

 

[Lemonzest]

I had someone in our group cheat in the exact same way. We would use 2 decks and the deck not being used would be shuffled ahead by the same person that would ultimately deal the deck in the next hand. What this individual was doing was taking a look at the cards prior to dealing so he would (to some degree) know what cards would come up.

We are a tight knit group of guys that grew up together. Most of the players have known each other for decades not just years. I was in favour of just never inviting him again but ultimately my friend convinced me to still invite him. He still plays in our game sometimes but we just never use 2 decks when he is playing.

Our stakes are small and he never really crushes the game anyway. He was probably breakeven or a losing player.

I favour 2 extreme options in how to handle it. Either you just be very direct with everyone and tell them what happened and what the outcome is ( life ban). Or you go the other way and just let him keep playing, say nothing, and make sure he stops the behavior.

Personally, I favour dropping the hammer but I wouldn't fault someone for keeping a friend around. If we played stakes any bigger than we currently do then I would have zero tolerance.

The third option is to share the information with your group and put the ball in their court. Tell them you witnessed player "x" cheating so what should we do about it. This could help to make people feel included rather than you making unilateral decisions. Everyone likes change better when they feel like it was their idea. The only downside of this is that they might decide to let him keep playing which puts you in a very awkward spot.

 

[Legend5555]

I've been thorough a similar situation. Though, our player was caught red handed at another game and word got around. Even though he wasn't invited anymore obviously, it didn't affect anyone else's attendance. Even some of his better friends just detached from him after he got caught.

Also depending on the size of your game, I'd think you'd just want a full time dealer. We had full time dealers working off tips at 1/1 games in our area. They arguably could make more per hour doing that than by playing.