The politics of dealing with a cheater (3 Viewers)

[Forty4]

You could just tell everyone to fold when he cuts. I could see him spinning it as being no different than a player exposing his hand. In the fraud triangle there is pressure (motive) - opportunity - rationalization. So as the host you have to remove the opportunity he already has the motive and rationalization.

 

[johnnycnote]

 

[saleen121212]

Money amount does not matter. How he is cheating does. If you acuse him of cheating and he isn't that will destroy the game. Which is why people are asking what he did specifically. That is the only part you need to be careful of. If he's 100 percent cheating and his friends take his side after you explain it I wouldn't want them at my game.

 

[yone]

View attachment 362493

Lol. That ace was really wedged in there!

 

[detroitdad]

I don't understand. If your positive that he is cheating, then ban him. If I found out that you didn't ban him. I would never play at your game again.

 

[Taghkanic]

For those asking, we play a $100 tournet early. First place is usually around $750. The cash game starts at 1/2 when short handed; once the tourney breaks it bumps up to 2/5.

But I don’t think that matters.

 

[shorticus]

I don't understand. If your positive that he is cheating, then ban him. If I found out that you didn't ban him. I would never play at your game again.

This is a major risk that you run by not banning him. You risk losing your good honest players if the information comes to light before you take any action.

 

[johnnycnote]

Lol. That ace was really wedged in there!

New meaning to ace in the hole lol

 

[Trihonda]

Sounds like a similar situation to firing a popular employee. This is how I would handle it:

Address the individual first by saying: "The decision has been made* to remove you from the invite list effective immediately. The reason for this decision is the fact that cheating tactics have been observed by multiple individuals on multiple occasions. I hope we can maintain our friendship."

After that, address the group either in writing or in person at your next game by saying: "The decision has been made* to permanently remove [guy] from the invite list. The reason for this is because he has been undeniably observed cheating during his deals by multiple individuals including myself. Game integrity is paramount, and continuing to have this individual in the game represents an unacceptable risk.

As such, some new dealing procedures will be implemented. [then explain the new rules]"

*When you use language like this, it removes any notion that this is not settled. It also removes the sentiment that this is somehow personal that could be perceived if you say something like 'we've decided', etc. You will get far less resistance from the group if you address it matter-of-factly that makes it clear that you're acting in the best interest of the group.

This is how I’d do it... that said, if you’ve been observing this for several months, I’d wait a few sessions more, but take hidden camera footage to capture the cheating technique. Video is undeniable, and damning. It lets people see for themselves, Someone so close to the cheater will deny it happened (not believe the claim) or simply believe the cheater was misunderstood. video lays it out for all to see. I’d place a camera so that it doesn’t show his cards, or allow any claim of you using the video being used cheat. There are tons of camera setups, easy to install.

 

[saleen121212]

For those asking, we play a $100 tournet early. First place is usually around $750. The cash game starts at 1/2 when short handed; once the tourney breaks it bumps up to 2/5.

But I don’t think that matters.

At these stakes a dedicated dealer would be preferred. Going forward after the ban there needs to be clear rules and if the rules are broken it leads to a ban that way there is no arguing or touchy situations.

 

[Taghkanic]

OP:

“The real decisions now are (a) how to break the news to the cheat, who is a longtime regular and good friend of most of our group — which includes about a dozen steady regs and another dozen occasional players; and, far more importantly (b) how to break the news to the group, to lessen the chances that the situation destroys the whole game.”

“The big problem is, both of us and the group all consider him a great guy and a friend.”

“Firing him from the game is going to cause real turmoil. I am just trying to strategize how to minimize the fallout, which seems inevitable.”

“There are likely going to be important players who get angry and leave the game when we ban him, even though the observations of cheating come from other friends they trust. ”

(It feels trolling when someone says “I can’t be bothered to read your post, or your responses, but I demand you explain it for a third time.”)

(To the reply “why does it matter, just boot him,” it matters because how it’s done will affect the viability of the group going forward.)

 

[detroitdad]

(To the reply “why does it matter, just boot him,” it matters because how it’s done will affect the viability of the group going forward.)

I don't care how you do it. It shouldn't matter how. Call him, send him an email, text him. He isn't your wife. He is a cheating SOB that needs to not attend another game.

Then at the email your group, or wait until the next game and explain things to them. "I cut a bitch because he was cheating" Well, maybe not that. You get the point.

 

[shorticus]

This is how I’d do it... that said, if you’ve been observing this for several months, I’d wait a few sessions more, but take hidden camera footage to capture the cheating technique. Video is undeniable, and damning. It lets people see for themselves, Someone so close to the cheater will deny it happened (not believe the claim) or simply believe the cheater was misunderstood. video lays it out for all to see. I’d place a camera so that it doesn’t show his cards, or allow any claim of you using the video being used cheat. There are tons of camera setups, easy to install.

I think @detroitdad makes a point that I know I've certainly overlooked. Time is relevant. By waiting, you run the risk of someone else realizing and addressing it in a "less formal" way. If you've observed cheating and you've been watching for several months, and you wait until NOW to say something. Hell, you're just as guilty as he is. For all I know, you guys are dividing my money at the end of the night.

You have to address this ASAP, and ban this guy.

and yes, stakes do matter in the grand scheme of things. Not in a sense of the guy being a jerk (clearly he's an asshole), but I'm slightly more forgiving to losing 10/20 bucks in a micro stakes game than losing $500 bucks in a 2/5 game. I expect that higher end game to be ran in a much more orderly and secure fashion.

 

[Trihonda]

This video was shown piblically to our 1600+ member Facebook community from a respected host. This player was respected and well liked. Had the video not surfaced, Vikrams behavior would have been excused away. But now his name is mud, and theres no doubt he cheated. I’m not saying publicize a video, but a video takes away the “sour grapes” or mistaken or overreacting claIms by his friends. You will be vilified without proof.

 

[yone]

I sympathize with your your frustration. I like what others have said - have a new rule on shuffling and cutting and also video recording for hard evidence. But enforcing that rule, I believe will take you in the right direction. You can also say, it would be for the integrity for the game and transparency for any new members for the future.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Edit - removed to new thread

 

[Lemonzest]

For those asking, we play a $100 tournet early. First place is usually around $750. The cash game starts at 1/2 when short handed; once the tourney breaks it bumps up to 2/5.

But I don’t think that matters.

I think stakes matter but I can understand why some people would say that they don't. Because those cash and tourney stakes are significant to most middle class people I think a ban is in order.

At small stakes there is just more space to say "ah you caught me but I was just fucking around..." It is like cheating at monopoly. The higher the stakes the less space there is to say "haha I was just messing around".

Is it a friendly game or a game where people are taking the money serious? IMO cheating in a game "for fun" is different than cheating "for money". It is kind of splitting hairs but it matters to me.

 

[Trihonda]

I don't care how you do it. It shouldn't matter how. Call him, send him an email, text him. He isn't your wife. He is a cheating SOB that needs to not attend another game.

Then at the email your group, or wait until the next game and explain things to them. "I cut a bitch because he was cheating" Well, maybe not that. You get the point.

oh I agree that in my game, he’d never see my felt again. But given the OP’s question, with the politics involved, I’d get video proof. Especially since it’s subtle enough of a cheat that it took months for the OP to come to the definitive conclusion.

 

[shorticus]

This video was shown piblically to our 1600+ member Facebook community from a respected host. This player was respected and well liked. Had the video not surfaced, Vikrams behavior would have been excused away. But now his name is mud, and theres no doubt he cheated. I’m not saying publicize a video, but a video takes away the “sour grapes” or mistaken or overreacting claIms by his friends. You will be vilified without proof.

Just for clarification, I'm not saying that you're wrong about the video. What I'm saying is if you've been observing this for several months, time is not on your side. Unless you are setting this up for the very next game, every time that you allow a session to go by without saying anything, you are running the risk of disaster. Suppose someone goes to the game and sees it at the next session. OP's response is, "we've been watching this for a couple months now, and were preparing to bring this to everyone's attention."

My response (friend or no friend): WTF!?!?! Are you crazy!?!?!? You've been letting this guy essentially steal money for "several months". We definitely have a problem.

 

[Taghkanic]

At these stakes a dedicated dealer would be preferred.

The tourney is two tables. Finding two dealers who can make it every time in a rural county is going to be difficult.

 

[detroitdad]

oh I agree that in my game, he’d never see my felt again. But given the OP’s question, with the politics involved, I’d get video proof. Especially since it’s subtle enough of a cheat that it took months for the OP to come to the definitive conclusion.

I disagree. I'm the host. If "I" am sure that your cheating. Your not coming back.

I'm also not going to worry about politics. If the other players can't understand that banning a cheater is what is best for the game, then they are beyond help.

 

[bsdunbar1]

I have not read through every single post, honestly I got tired after reading the first page with only advice on how to shuffle and cut.

Now on to your question from the OP -
I had to deal with this exact same situation, the only difference I had was the individual was BFFs with anyone, but someone who was friends with a few & played in our league for several years.

I approached him honestly and directly. Told him others suspected him of cheating, came to me and I observed his actions.
This is pretty much exactly how it went down -

Me: Other players have come to me feeling uncomfortable that you are cheating. So much so that one player recorded on his phone your actions with the deck. Shuffling/Collecting Cards/Cutting/etc etc
After reviewing his video and then paying attention to your actions myself I feel there is enough of something going on that I am not comfortable with you continuing to play in our group. Although I cannot say 100% you are cheating, something isn't right and it is my job to protect the integrity of our group and I will feel more comfortable if you are no longer involved.
Him: I am not cheating, other players are just jealous because I am better than they are. They are always trying to blame the player who wins the most blah blah blah.
Me; I understand you feeling this way and all of that may be true, but from what I have observed I feel it is in the best interest of my game that you do not attend any longer.

After this happened I told all the players the same thing. I believed he was cheating but did not accuse him or tell anyone he was. I told them the same thing I told him. I observed, felt uncomfortable and to protect my game and all the players in it I felt it was my duty to ask him not to return.

There were players who were friends with him, some who still are but I think most felt grateful that I was looking out for the best interest of the game and for them as players.

I did not lose a single player over it, in fact I know I would have lost a few players if I did nothing.

 

[saleen121212]

I think stakes matter but I can understand why some people would say that they don't. Because those cash and tourney stakes are significant to most middle class people I think a ban is in order.

At small stakes there is just more space to say "ah you caught me but I was just fucking around..." It is like cheating at monopoly. The higher the stakes the less space there is to say "haha I was just messing around".

Is it a friendly game or a game where people are taking the money serious? IMO cheating in a game "for fun" is different than cheating "for money". It is kind of splitting hairs but it matters to me.

Why? Money is involved in both games... It's like you saying you wouldn't mind if I kick you in the nuts with medium strength vs a full power nut mashing kick.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't care how you do it. It shouldn't matter how. Call him, send him an email, text him. He isn't your wife. He is a cheating SOB that needs to not attend another game.

It’s a lot easier to say in the abstract, at a distance.

Human nature is such that even when all the blame falls on one person, their good friends make excuses or feel sorry for them.

So while I agree that it’s a fireable offense, it would be a deriliction or my duty as host not to aim first before firing.

At well-run games I attend, I appreciate hosts who handle things in a thoughtful, clear and mature way. Here, the core group are all good friends so I cant pretend it isn’t going to have ripple effects.

 

[Davism72]

Seems to be a lot of stories on this forum of very sophisticated cheating in very low stakes games...which seems a bit odd. Not sure the “juice is worth the squeeze“. Also cheating among friends. Again odd.

While I agree, I'd say you're overlooking the emotional aspect of winning a game, especially one among close friends. Even if the ill-gotten winnings are minimal, some people may be tempted to break the rules to ensure they win, and are thus seen as winners. You said that you've noticed his exceptionally high win rate, and I'd guess the other players have as well. I'm sure it feels good to be seen as the big winner at the table. People will do crazy things to preserve their self image.

 

[saleen121212]

It is a lot easier to say in the abstract, at a distance. Human nature is such that even when all the blame falls on one person, their good friends make excuses or feel sorry for them.

So while I agree that it’s a fireable offense, it would be a deriliction or my duty as host to aim first before firing. At well-run games I attend, I appreciate hosts who handle things in a thoughtful, clear and mature way.

So if we are sure he is getting the boot all that needs to be discussed going forward is how to handle it. What about a vote with your regs? How about asking some of them first what they think?

 

[detroitdad]

It is a lot easier to say in the abstract, at a distance. Human nature is such that even when all the blame falls on one person, their good friends make excuses or feel sorry for them.

So while I agree that it’s a fireable offense, it would be a deriliction or my duty as host to aim first before firing. At well-run games I attend, I appreciate hosts who handle things in a thoughtful, clear and mature way.

I didn't say that you couldn't be calm, cool, and collective about it. I just said that you need to get rid of him before his cheating destroys your game.

It is a lot easier to say in the abstract, at a distance.

Nope, I deal with conflict all the time (at work). Oh, and I raised two daughters lol. If you handle as such like @bsdunbar1 did. You will be fine.

 

[Legend5555]

I have not read through every single post, honestly I got tired after reading the first page with only advice on how to shuffle and cut.

Now on to your question from the OP -
I had to deal with this exact same situation, the only difference I had was the individual was BFFs with anyone, but someone who was friends with a few & played in our league for several years.

I approached him honestly and directly. Told him others suspected him of cheating, came to me and I observed his actions.
This is pretty much exactly how it went down -

Me: Other players have come to me feeling uncomfortable that you are cheating. So much so that one player recorded on his phone your actions with the deck. Shuffling/Collecting Cards/Cutting/etc etc
After reviewing his video and then paying attention to your actions myself I feel there is enough of something going on that I am not comfortable with you continuing to play in our group. Although I cannot say 100% you are cheating, something isn't right and it is my job to protect the integrity of our group and I will feel more comfortable if you are no longer involved.
Him: I am not cheating, other players are just jealous because I am better than they are. They are always trying to blame the player who wins the most blah blah blah.
Me; I understand you feeling this way and all of that may be true, but from what I have observed I feel it is in the best interest of my game that you do not attend any longer.

After this happened I told all the players the same thing. I believed he was cheating but did not accuse him or tell anyone he was. I told them the same thing I told him. I observed, felt uncomfortable and to protect my game and all the players in it I felt it was my duty to ask him not to return.

There were players who were friends with him, some who still are but I think most felt grateful that I was looking out for the best interest of the game and for them as players.

I did not lose a single player over it, in fact I know I would have lost a few players if I did nothing.

All of this. I don't think you are going to lose as many people as you think.

 

[Lemonzest]

Why? Money is involved in both games... It's like you saying you wouldn't mind if I kick you in the nuts with medium strength vs a full power nut mashing kick.

It does matter even in your example. I am not saying cheating for small amounts doesn't matter. All cheating is a problem. However, someone stealing $20 is different than stealing $2,000.

 

[toynoob]

I think stakes matter but I can understand why some people would say that they don't. Because those cash and tourney stakes are significant to most middle class people I think a ban is in order.

At small stakes there is just more space to say "ah you caught me but I was just fucking around..." It is like cheating at monopoly. The higher the stakes the less space there is to say "haha I was just messing around".

Is it a friendly game or a game where people are taking the money serious? IMO cheating in a game "for fun" is different than cheating "for money". It is kind of splitting hairs but it matters to me.

That is so weird how different you and myself see the subject. You laugh off cheating in Monopoly, and forgive micro stakes money, but $500 is where you draw the line. I personally think if you cheat even in Monopoly your character is flawed. You mindset isn't how can I win playing the best of my ability it's how do I win by cheating since it's not significant amount of money. Call me a liar but I don't and have never cheated a game of Monopoly. Even to the point of hurting my own self if I can't remember if I got my go money bc I was taking care of the other 5 people since I bank.