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The politics of dealing with a cheater (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Taghkanic
- Start date
moose
4 of a Kind
The purpose is to have it in writing that he was warned. Even better if he responds, denial or acceptance, either way doesn't matter. Just so you have the 'paper' trail if he returns to the game and repeats his behaviour. Now you have direct evidence that he was warned and chose to continue to take advantage.
stevea
Two Pair
Problem with tips is that’s taking a profit. Which is illegal, at least in our state, which is why a few games got in trouble. Stupid I know.
......shuffletech??
......shuffletech??
Alternatives:
1. get a shuffling machine - Cons - expensive, Pros - it's a freaking shuffling machine in your home game!
2. cut off one his hands - Cons - might be considered assault in some jurisdictions, Pros - some cultures would agree that this is justice served!
1. get a shuffling machine - Cons - expensive, Pros - it's a freaking shuffling machine in your home game!
2. cut off one his hands - Cons - might be considered assault in some jurisdictions, Pros - some cultures would agree that this is justice served!
Moxie Mike
Full House
Sounds like a similar situation to firing a popular employee. This is how I would handle it:
Address the individual first by saying: "The decision has been made* to remove you from the invite list effective immediately. The reason for this decision is the fact that cheating tactics have been observed by multiple individuals on multiple occasions. I hope we can maintain our friendship."
After that, address the group either in writing or in person at your next game by saying: "The decision has been made* to permanently remove [guy] from the invite list. The reason for this is because he has been undeniably observed cheating during his deals by multiple individuals including myself. Game integrity is paramount, and continuing to have this individual in the game represents an unacceptable risk.
As such, some new dealing procedures will be implemented. [then explain the new rules]"
*When you use language like this, it removes any notion that this is not settled. It also removes the sentiment that this is somehow personal that could be perceived if you say something like 'we've decided', etc. You will get far less resistance from the group if you address it matter-of-factly that makes it clear that you're acting in the best interest of the group.
Address the individual first by saying: "The decision has been made* to remove you from the invite list effective immediately. The reason for this decision is the fact that cheating tactics have been observed by multiple individuals on multiple occasions. I hope we can maintain our friendship."
After that, address the group either in writing or in person at your next game by saying: "The decision has been made* to permanently remove [guy] from the invite list. The reason for this is because he has been undeniably observed cheating during his deals by multiple individuals including myself. Game integrity is paramount, and continuing to have this individual in the game represents an unacceptable risk.
As such, some new dealing procedures will be implemented. [then explain the new rules]"
*When you use language like this, it removes any notion that this is not settled. It also removes the sentiment that this is somehow personal that could be perceived if you say something like 'we've decided', etc. You will get far less resistance from the group if you address it matter-of-factly that makes it clear that you're acting in the best interest of the group.
On a more serious note. Bring up the subject of cheating with the players in the game and ask them what they think.
THEN, out the cheating rat bastard in front of everyone. Let him play but don't let him touch the deck.
THEN, out the cheating rat bastard in front of everyone. Let him play but don't let him touch the deck.
gopherblue
Straight Flush
I’d offer, but I’d ultimately like to be a part of the game.
Moxie Mike
Full House
Turning the game into a democracy is a slippery slope. I have a few key members of our group that I consult if I'm considering a change, but ultimately, all decisions are mine to make.
Embarrassing the person will achieve the exact opposite of the OP's stated objective.
this is exactly how to do it
Everyone agrees that cheating is objectively bad for a game but when someone who is close and popular with many of the players is accused of cheating it no longer becomes an objective matter. Without hard proof (and even sometimes with undeniable proof) the other players will think what they want to think whether the accusation is true; whether the consequences are objectively fair of not. It’s not very plausible but I think the best course would be to get video of the cheating happening especially if it’s in a hand with another player in the group whose well liked (this would help the rest of the group rationalize that they are being hurt as well as opposed to showing the cheater cheating on some non-regular they may not care about). Confront the cheater and if they deny or start to get defensive, show them the tape and say you’d like to let him go quietly but if he causes a stir that you’ll be forced to share the video with the rest of the group for transparency on why you had to ban him. Obviously tricky to do but without hard proof, people who are too close to the offender are not going to see the situation objectively and even then their emotions will play into it to some extent.
Best of luck and sorry the cheater put you in this situation.
PS - Agree 100% with @Moxie Mike’s language.
Best of luck and sorry the cheater put you in this situation.
PS - Agree 100% with @Moxie Mike’s language.
Forty4
Full House
Buy a shuffletech and deal the entire game yourself. Will the game die if you terminate him? This way you can keep the game going and say you just got a new toy that you spent a lot of money on and want to use.
I like this plan. Also, make it clear that he is cheating EVERYONE by having proprietary knowledge on hands that he deals.
DerberAlter
Flush
@Taghkanic I know exactly your problem. I had a similar situation at my game, some months ago. I don't think, there is a generic answer to your question. It took me at least 8-10 hours of pure mental work to find a way to remove him from the game without crashing it. Good luck!
btw: cheaters will always cheat. and they cheat on multiple levels. maybe he cheats way more, than you just realize. if he has a crazy winrate, there is maybe more than just the information about 1 card in the deck
btw: cheaters will always cheat. and they cheat on multiple levels. maybe he cheats way more, than you just realize. if he has a crazy winrate, there is maybe more than just the information about 1 card in the deck
saleen121212
Full House
This.
I am not against half measure such as this. However, the problem remains you are still playing poker with a cheater.
Sorry can't buy this at all, when it comes to cheating it shouldn't make a difference if it's for pennies or thousands of dollars.
If you are cheating a group of friends for pennies then you are really a crappy individual.
Old State
Full House
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2016
- Messages
- 3,591
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- 5,836
I don’t understand what the issue is. If he is absolutely cheating, dump him. There are no politics.
I’m also kinda of interested in the stakes being played. Seems to be a lot of stories on this forum of very sophisticated cheating in very low stakes games...which seems a bit odd. Not sure the “juice is worth the squeeze“. Also cheating among friends. Again odd.
I’m also kinda of interested in the stakes being played. Seems to be a lot of stories on this forum of very sophisticated cheating in very low stakes games...which seems a bit odd. Not sure the “juice is worth the squeeze“. Also cheating among friends. Again odd.
cosmokramer
Pair
If you‘re certain he cheated, for me it doesn‘t matter „how bad“, you cheat, you‘re out.
Add to that, that he‘s
Btw, I wouldn‘t return to a game with a known cheater in it.
Add to that, that he‘s
No way I would call someone like this a friend.
Btw, I wouldn‘t return to a game with a known cheater in it.
When confronting him, if it were me, I would be very careful about using the word "cheating." That could escalate the situation very quickly. I would prefer to say something like "your irregular shuffling practices appear to give you an unfair advantage." I think this approach softens the issue enough to placate his close friends. Then, institute new shuffling and dealing practices that make this more preventable in the future.
The fact that he has a history (going based on the conversation) makes him a cheater in my eyes. My narrative changes based on the fact that OP later states in the thread that the guy has caused a game to break due to a previous incident where he was accused of cheating.
In all seriousness, at this point, I don't care about his friends and how they take it. The guy has a problem, and that needs to be addressed. If it breaks the game, tough shit, but I'm not playing in a game where I either get cheated or don't play. I'll pass every time.
In all seriousness, at this point, I don't care about his friends and how they take it. The guy has a problem, and that needs to be addressed. If it breaks the game, tough shit, but I'm not playing in a game where I either get cheated or don't play. I'll pass every time.
As a new or returning player to the game, you be more inclined to play if you heard:
They kicked a guy out they thought was cheating the deal - or -
They allowed a guy they thought was cheating to continue to play and deal?
If it were me and I knew with absolute certainty that he was cheating, I tell him to leave his stack and get the fuck out of my house. I don't care if he is a "friend" or not. Friends don't steal from each other. If he doesn't comply, he will be escorted to his car.
OP
OP
@links_slayer, yes. But I’ve already stated that repeatedly, so your comments feel like trolling. Try another thread, please.
OP
OP
That was my initial feeling, yes. But I’m willing to be convinced if there is a better way. Still leaning toward ejection, but all options are on the table.
Forty4
Full House
I certainly didn’t take it as a troll. You ask a question and he was trying to find out information. It certainly seems like you’re worried about the game breaking up and he was just confirming. Others have also eluded to that concern as well.
Sorry can't buy this at all, when it comes to cheating it shouldn't make a difference if it's for pennies or thousands of dollars.
If you are cheating a group of friends for pennies then you are really a crappy individual.
In one sense it doesn't make a difference. On the other hand it does make a difference if someone is winning $500/week or $10-20/week. If someone is cheating to win a small amount I think there is more leeway in terms of discipline and reinstatement. It is easier to laugh it off and move on - given there is corrective action taken.
If someone is scamming for hundreds consistently then there isn't much room for conversation or corrective action - it is the ban hammer.
Like I said in our game there was someone who cheated and he still plays sometimes. People decided that friendship was more important than the game - our stakes are 20 NL. so it doesn't matter that much. Also the cheater doesn't win regularly even when he was cheating.
The word ‘friend’ is subjective, and to me the length of time I have known him doesn’t make the person a true friend. Friends are people I trust and I believe have integrity. If I caught a friend cheating in a poker game, I would question if I really knew the person and would make me look at him differently - even outside of the game.
If you loose some players because they followed the cheater, it might be for the better. Your game might suffer, but you can build it back up with a more sound structure and system.
If you loose some players because they followed the cheater, it might be for the better. Your game might suffer, but you can build it back up with a more sound structure and system.
I didn’t see your post when I was writing mine. It wasn’t a response to what you just wrote. And I can completely respect the decision of letting the guy back in your game.
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