The politics of dealing with a cheater (4 Viewers)

[T_Chan]

I read the first 2 pages, then skipped ahead to page 6 so sorry if I missed anything.

My 2 cents would be to ask the group what to do.

When the cheater is not there, talk to the group: "Hey everyone, I have to break some bad news to everyone but "john doe" has been observed manipulating the deck on more than one occasion, and it's been confirmed by someone else. There's no question if he's doing this, he's doing it. I am planning to not invite him back, but as a group, how would everyone like to deal with it?"

Then follow through with the decision.

 

[Saoliver]

.

 

[Beakertwang]

I'm probably a little late to the party, but...

My game has never had more than $200 on the table. If I had a guy who didn't want to use a cut card, or let someone else shuffle for his deal, or didn't want to go along with any other of my ways of doing things, he'd get a warning. If he didn't come around, he'd be off the invite list. I've got no time for any of that garbage.

 

[shorticus]

I think this has been already addressed. The “confrontation” with the player doesn’t concern me at all; in my work I’ve dealt with far more harsh situations many times. (I’ve been involved with a lot of political campaigns, and don’t shy away from telling either opponents or allies what I think.)

The concern, as stated in the OP, is to address this in a smart, clear way that avoids losing significant players even though the guy is in the wrong. For example, as noted, many in the game are going to his wedding soon. That’s the level of mutual history and connection here.

You need to thoroughly explain exactly why it took so much time to address. I get that you need to be sure, but that's a lot of time to be sure. You keep alluding to the friendships in this situation, but to me, that makes it seem like these guys need to be more aware of what is going on sooner than later. Ideally, video evidence would have been ideal (as others have stated), but that's not where we are now. At this point, your friends have to take your word. It's gonna be he said/she said in this case, the best you can do is be straight forward. However, you should prepare for a lot of questions, and transparency is best. I'm not sure at this point how you get a positive outcome for this situation.

 

[saleen121212]

I saw it, but was a bit confused by it. You proposed a vote to either ban him, or change the rules. Our rules already include no cheating, in general, and standard shuffle behind/mandatory cuts.

What rule change did you have in mind?

I read the first 2 pages, then skipped ahead to page 6 so sorry if I missed anything.

My 2 cents would be to ask the group what to do.

When the cheater is not there, talk to the group: "Hey everyone, I have to break some bad news to everyone but "john doe" has been observed manipulating the deck on more than one occasion, and it's been confirmed by someone else. There's no question if he's doing this, he's doing it. I am planning to not invite him back, but as a group, how would everyone like to deal with it?"

Then follow through with the decision.

What he said, but no names and possibly include the cheater in a message. I don't know what the other option would be. Ban or no Ban? Ban or Second Chance? Ban or Gather more info?

The point I am making is this would make it a decision with no favoritism/friendship getting in the way. Unbiased blind vote on how to handle X cheater.

 

[Forty4]

Okay just tell him I’ve asked you numerous time to shuffle properly and you’ve ignored my request therefore I’m no longer permitting you to play at my game.

eliminate all the inferred cheating claims and it’s more of a you don’t respect my game and therefore I don’t want you. Will also serve you well in the future when rules are not followed.

 

[Taghkanic]

You need to thoroughly explain exactly why it took so much time to address. I get that you need to be sure, but that's a lot of time to be sure. You keep alluding to the friendships in this situation, but to me, that makes it seem like these guys need to be more aware of what is going on sooner than later. Ideally, video evidence would have been ideal (as others have stated), but that's not where we are now. At this point, your friends have to take your word. It's gonna be he said/she said in this case, the best you can do is be straight forward. However, you should prepare for a lot of questions, and transparency is best. I'm not sure at this point how you get a positive outcome for this situation.

I think you may have skipped some stuff. At this point it’s not just my word. A second, trusted member (who is both a winning player in the game, and a good friend of the cheater) was enlisted to investigate and provide a credible second set of eyes who could not be accused of malice or bias. It took 5-6 games to assemble enough observations to feel confident. In the meantime, the relevant rules were re-posted and re-emphasized without fingering the person being investigated. Because, obv, we needed to gather evidence. Just as I don’t tolerate cheating, I also don’t make accusations without proof. Especially among friends.

 

[Taghkanic]

[THREAD INTERMISSION]

GOD: OK, everybody, gather ’round. Listen up. I’m sorry to have to tell you that Adam and Eve were caught eating an apple from the Tree of Knowledge

ANGELS: Whoa

GOD: I told everyone not to do that. So, I’m thinking of banishing Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden. My Angels, what say you?

ANGEL #1: Send them both to straight to Hell! I gots no to time for that bullcrap! They’re OUT!

ANGEL #2: Why didn’t you warn them sooner about how serious this whole knowledge-apple thingy is? Seems a little harsh

ANGEL #2: Hmm, wait... Are you sure they ate from the tree of knowledge? Maybe it was a mistake. Let’s set up hidden cameras and see if they do it again

GOD: [eyeroll] I am a hidden camera

ANGEL #4: Honestly, Lord, I feel kind of betrayed that you didn’t tell us the moment they took the first bite

ANGEL #5: I don’t see why Adam should have to suffer for Eve’s weakness

ANGEL #6: God, dude, it’s your own fault for creating serpents

[WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR STANDARD INTERWEBS CHATSITE ARGUMENT THREAD]

 

[shorticus]

I think you may have skipped some stuff. At this point it’s not just my word. A second, trusted member (who is both a winning player in the game, and a good friend of the cheater) was enlisted to investigate and provide a credible second set of eyes who could not be accused of malice or bias. It took 5-6 games to assemble enough observations to feel confident. In the meantime, the relevant rules were re-posted and re-emphasized without fingering the person being investigated. Because, obv, we needed to gather evidence. Just as I don’t tolerate cheating, I also don’t make accusations without proof. Especially among friends.

No, I got the point about the other person being involved, but without video proof, the number of witnesses don't provide more than your word. Point being, if your friends are trusting you to host the game, your word should be enough. Your friends word shouldn't add any weight to what you say. I get that you want to be careful in this situation, but as a player (friends or not), I just find that 5-6 games is a lot of time for something that should have taken at most 5/6 orbits.

Either way, the answer is say something now and don't let this continue. I'd actually be harder on my friends in this instance because I hold my friends to a higher standard that your average Joe Public. I'd also owe it to the rest of my friends to tell them in a timely manner because those guys (who we assume are honest) are being taken advantage of by someone they think is their friend.

 

[gmunny]

Only thing i would add would be maybe to call/discuss with a few more of your close friends in the group. Tell them the situation and before telling them who it is, tell them you are banning that player. Get their reaction before you tell them who it is. Hopefully, they will understand and you have a few more people in your court before the news goes public. The goal is to get a some of the other regs to help mitigate/reduce black lash, especially if the cheater is going to make a big deal of it. Sorry you have to deal with something like this. Good luck!

 

[toynoob]

[THREAD INTERMISSION]

GOD: OK, everybody, gather ’round. Listen up. I’m sorry to have to tell you that Adam and Eve were caught eating an apple from the Tree of Knowledge

ANGELS: Whoa

GOD: I told everyone not to do that. So, I’m thinking of banishing Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden. My Angels, what say you?

ANGEL #1: Send them both to straight to Hell! I gots no to time for that bullcrap! They’re OUT!

ANGEL #2: Why didn’t you warn them sooner about how serious this whole knowledge-apple thingy is? Seems a little harsh

ANGEL #2: Hmm, wait... Are you sure they ate from the tree of knowledge? Maybe it was a mistake. Let’s set up hidden cameras and see if they do it again

GOD: [eyeroll] I am a hidden camera

ANGEL #4: Honestly, Lord, I feel kind of betrayed that you didn’t tell us the moment they took the first bite

ANGEL #5: I don’t see why Adam should have to suffer for Eve’s weakness

ANGEL #6: God, dude, it’s your own fault for creating serpents

[WE NOW RETURN YOU TO YOUR STANDARD INTERWEBS CHATSITE ARGUMENT THREAD]

SWEET BACK TO STARBURSTS ARE BETTER THAN DENOMS ATTITUDE!!! I knew it was a matter of time... Just had no idea it was going to take 7 pages. I missed you @Taghkanic

 

[softchewy]

For those asking, we play a $100 tournet early. First place is usually around $750. The cash game starts at 1/2 when short handed; once the tourney breaks it bumps up to 2/5.

But I don’t think that matters.

It matters in regards to what word you put in front of bag..
.5/.10 to .25/.50 - douchebag
.50/1 to 1/2 - dirtbag
2/5+ - scumbag


Sucky situation... different ways to handle it (confrontational is probably not best).
If I was certain he was cheating (however I handled it), banning would be the ultimate outcome.

 

[flipupchipup]

Given the way this person is supposedly cheating I would say the problem has more to do with the games dealing mechanics more than the player in question. Simply change the dealing structure to eliminate his ability to "peek" at cards and gain info. That seems like a much easier fix than banning him from the game. If you don't fix the dealing mechanics, who is to say someone else from the game isn't doing this or wont in the future

 

[Taghkanic]

Simply change the dealing structure to eliminate his ability to "peek" at cards and gain info.

What suggestions would you make “changing the dealing structure”, besides hiring dealers? (That’s not likely to happen.)

We shuffle two behind, and person to their left is supposed to cut them to the next dealer.

I can only remind people that this is mandatory so many times. I can watch carefully at my table, but can’t be at both simultaneously.

The problem is the player, who is exploiting the trust of friends gathered for friendly home game where people are paying more attention to the action and socializing than scanning nonstop for cheating.

 

[softchewy]

Given the way this person is supposedly cheating I would say the problem has more to do with the games dealing mechanics more than the player in question. Simply change the dealing structure to eliminate his ability to "peek" at cards and gain info. That seems like a much easier fix than banning him from the game. If you don't fix the dealing mechanics, who is to say someone else from the game isn't doing this or wont in the future

I'll respectfully disagree.. he is cheating. The problem is not solely the method, but also (and defintely more so) the player.
If you "fix" the dealing it doesn't necessarily make him not cheat.. assume he will (or may already) cheat other ways.

 

[Taghkanic]

One idea which has emerged from all this is the idea of video cameras which everyone knows are there. I don’t particularly want to spy on my friends. But (a) players might enjoy reviewing the streams to check out some of the better hands, and (b) if everyone know the games are being captured on “tape,” it serves as a deterrent to cheating.

Thing is, I’d probably need like four of these to even have a chance of capturing the type of activity in question, two per table. Seats are assigned randomly and of course move in the course of a tourney. Seems kind of like overkill for a home game. Does anyone else do this?

 

[DoubleEagle]

Did you read the Amazon reviews of this camera? Some real tinfoil hat shit right there

Been using three of them for the last couple of years with no problems. @k9dr uses them to live stream his meetup.

 

[softchewy]

One idea which has emerged from all this is the idea of video cameras which everyone knows are there. I don’t particularly want to spy on my friends. But (a) players might enjoy reviewing the streams to check out some of the better hands, and (b) if everyone know the games are being captured on “tape,” it serves as a deterrent to cheating.

Thing is, I’d probably need like four of these to even have a chance of capturing the type of activity in question, two per table. Seats are assigned randomly and of course move in the course of a tourney. Seems kind of like overkill for a home game. Does anyone else do this?

Have a drone hover above the current dealer.. although distracting and dangerous, it will liven up the game.
If you catch him cheating, crash the drone into his face and exclaim, "robots don't lie! shame, shame, shame.."

 

[flipupchipup]

I'll respectfully disagree.. he is cheating. The problem is not solely the method, but also (and defintely more so) the player.
If you "fix" the dealing it doesn't necessarily make him not cheat.. assume he will (or may already) cheat other ways.

And if he is cheating by seeing the bottom of the deck, then kicking him from the game isn't going to fix the issue as someone else can clearly do the same thing.

Now if you caught him stacking the deck, that's an entirely different matter altogether.

Buying an automatic shuffler seems like an easy fix, if the OP doesn't want to risk blowing up the game imo

 

[softchewy]

And if he is cheating by seeing the bottom of the deck, then kicking him from the game isn't going to fix the issue as someone else can clearly do the same thing.

Now if you caught him stacking the deck, that's an entirely different matter altogether.

Buying an automatic shuffler seems like an easy fix, if the OP doesn't want to risk blowing up the game imo

sure, fix the issue, but he is cheating. If you think that it's ok to have a cheater in your game, have at it.
again, he is cheating.

 

[Frogzilla]

Isn’t it easier to just have him shuffle normally? He’s a winning player and y’all let him overhand shuffle while he can see the cards?

What the hell

 

[JMC9389]

And if he is cheating by seeing the bottom of the deck, then kicking him from the game isn't going to fix the issue as someone else can clearly do the same thing.

Now if you caught him stacking the deck, that's an entirely different matter altogether.

Buying an automatic shuffler seems like an easy fix, if the OP doesn't want to risk blowing up the game imo

That, and make the cheater pay for the automatic shuffler with his I'll gotten winnings if he wants to keep playing.

OP should only that if he really wants to keep cheater and friends playing.

Me? I go the Moxie Mike approach. Boot him.

 

[Coyote]

Buying an automatic rifle seems like an easy fix, if the OP doesn't want to risk blowing up the game imo

FYP

 

[surfik]

If you know he cheats you should get rid of him at once. Plus I think it's important to let other players know. Such a practices should be eradicated with no mercy and person that cheats should ostracized.
But question is if you have clear proof of such a practice? If you do do not hesitate...

 

[flipupchipup]

sure, fix the issue, but he is cheating. If you think that it's ok to have a cheater in your game, have at it.
again, he is cheating.

So your solution is what? Blow up the game because this person is being given the opportunity to gain an edge?

He supposedly is cheating by peeking and most accurately touching the deck before the deck is set. Simply take that away and you should solve the issue without the risk of blowing up the game.

Ironically, jbutler and I play in a weekly game where we suspect someone of doing something very close to this. The game has been playing for over 40 years so simply kicking him from it isn't really a feasible solution. As host you can counteract that by controlling the situation better. Why do you think casinos use automatic card shufflers that never expose the cards before they are set.

 

[shorticus]

Because I find this situation intriguing (to say the least), I've decided to pose this question to a couple of my friends. I just want to add some perspective for @Taghkanic and hopefully useful information in helping him prepare for the fallout.

Some of the answers were as follows (paraphrasing of course):
1. Why did you wait 2 months to tell us?
2. Immediate dismissal (at the very least point out that you see what's going on).
3. If you see someone cheating and let him cheat for 2 months, it's gonna be two asswhippins being handed out!

Good news is that most people said they would come back and play if the situation was remedied.
Keeping this in perspective, the sample size is rather small.

 

[Mike mac]

this exact thing happened at a home game i attend regularly ... cheater was banned and lost all friends! stealing money from all of us.... he is gone!!

i get a full time dealer... takes care of all issues.

 

[APatHand]

 

[Al Azouri]

How about this. Let the group know what you’ve observed. Let them see it for themselves in the next session or two, then schedule an intervention.

 

[Taghkanic]

Because I find this situation intriguing (to say the least), I've decided to pose this question to a couple of my friends. I just want to add some perspective for @Taghkanic and hopefully useful information in helping him prepare for the fallout.

Some of the answers were as follows (paraphrasing of course):
1. Why did you wait 2 months to tell us?
2. Immediate dismissal (at the very least point out that you see what's going on).
3. If you see someone cheating and let him cheat for 2 months, it's gonna be two asswhippins being handed out!

Good news is that most people said they would come back and play if the situation was remedied.
Keeping this in perspective, the sample size is rather small.

The answer to the “why’d you wait” question is simple: There was no evidence yet two months ago, just suspicions. I don’t convict people of anything without evidence.

And in poker, winning players get accused of cheating a lot by weaker players who think their success must be crooked. 99% of the time they either played badly or ran into variance.

No one was “allowed to cheat for two months” (which here is about 4-5 games). An investigation was conducted. It took time to see how this was being worked.

Originally, the allegation was more traditional and precise deck stacking. Neither of us observed that type of detailed mechanics. Eventually, the softer angle of the loose shuffle which allows for addition/subtraction from ranges emerged. It was only after this theory was floated then verified at a game a day ago that we felt the evidence was clear.

During all that time, a warning was issued for all players to follow the rules for shuffling and cutting.

I’d ask your friends: If you had a bunch of honest winning sessions, but someone who was frustrated by their losses complained to the host that you were cheating, would it be cool if the host went nuclear on you right away? Especially if you’d all been friends for a decade?

Innocent until proven guilty applies, especially in a group which until this moment has had a ton of mutual trust built up over many years. I’d fall on a grenade for my group. Looks like that grenade may be this guy’s play.