The politics of dealing with a cheater (3 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

I’d wait a few sessions more, but take hidden camera footage to capture the cheating technique.

I agree with this. Based on the original post and a few of @Taghkanic 's comments early on it seems like a few people have observed potential shuffle tracking or stub spying. But unfortunately it's the word of a few against the accused. Video would really force the confrontation.

I think the facts as they are are already solid, especially as the other watcher is an objective, no-nonsense guy who is close with the cheater and is a winning player in our game. He thus can’t be accused of either bias, or jealously.

This is good and maybe this witness should be involved in the confrontation.

Having this guy in your corner is good, this guy + video is better.

P.S. Given the history and friendships in the group — ten years for most of us — I can say that people would be much more offended if such a serious accusation were made without due diligence and investigation.

I agree I think you owe some due dillegence here. And frankly without video, I think using the c word is out of the question.

But you have to meet with this guy. And I think he deserves to face his witnesses, if for no other reason than to take away his claim that you are being an overly nitty host.

Embarrassing him in front of the whole group isn't the way to do this, but a small group is probably to your advantage.

But frankly without video, he can deflect the peeking accusations pretty easily, and then he will portray you as trying to unfairly run him out of the game.

So I get this is a tough spot because of the ties involved.

But frankly, I would rather not host than be neutered out of doing the right thing for the game.

 

[Taghkanic]

BTW, I’m not worried that people will leafs the game because they lost faith in its integrity... I’m much more worried that they will leave because of personal friendship with the cheater! I’ve seen it before — scoundrels get a lot of love and understanding.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Well damn! What I was going to say has already been said, but:


1. A "friend" doesn't steal from his friends or steal from guests in his friends home

2. If you're able to setup cameras to capture verifiable proof that would help. As others have said, there will be people who think "oh, person "A" is so personable, he would NEVER cheat!" or "he's a good player who wins, that doesn't mean he's cheating!" because charismatic people get away with shit all the time.


I get needing to take time to verify such an accusation. Now that YOU are confident of the situation and have a trusted member who verified it with you (and other guests who suspected it) it's time to take him off the invite list.

Let him know he's been caught and he is no longer welcome in your home (I would dissolve the friendship as well, fuck him)

Get yourself and the others who suspected/verified the situation to address the group together, and explain that you needed time to verify such an accusation before acting, so as to not falsely accuse someone. But that you and others have observed how he was gaining an edge and that you will NOT permit your friends and guests to be taken advantage of, and he is no longer welcome in the games.

 

[Taghkanic]

he can deflect the peeking accusations pretty easily, and then he will portray you as trying to unfairly run him out of the game.

Oh, I’m not doing this by email or text, or in front of the group. But I’ll involve my other watcher.

You’re right that he’ll deflect. He works in a high-stress job, so I expect he’ll be cool under pressure. But I don’t think he’ll accuse us of trying to run him out, but will be more like, “Jeez, I don’t need to do that. The game is soft—why would I cheat? I’m so hurt that you’d think that.”

 

[Taghkanic]

@Anthony Martino I can’t get video evidence if I don’t invite him back! So either we decide we already know enough, or we have to let him run his racket for another game, which no one seems to think is kosher...

 

[Anthony Martino]

@Anthony Martino I can’t get video evidence if I don’t invite him back! So either we decide we already know enough, or we have to let him run his racket for another game, which no one seems to think is kosher...

Well, IF you believe you'd be able to get concrete video evidence, you could state that you and multiple other players were fairly certain he was gaining an unfair advantage but that because it's such a serious accusation you wanted to make sure you had documented video evidence to confirm what you saw was correct, and to avoid any doubt since he is close friends with so many other players who would not believe it without video proof.

 

[toynoob]

What's TAGH stand for on your chip?

 

[softchewy]

So your solution is what? Blow up the game because this person is being given the opportunity to gain an edge?

He supposedly is cheating by peeking and most accurately touching the deck before the deck is set. Simply take that away and you should solve the issue without the risk of blowing up the game.

Ironically, jbutler and I play in a weekly game where we suspect someone of doing something very close to this. The game has been playing for over 40 years so simply kicking him from it isn't really a feasible solution. As host you can counteract that by controlling the situation better. Why do you think casinos use automatic card shufflers that never expose the cards before they are set.

Never said blow up the game. Not sure how you infer that from my posts.
You make it sound like it is not his fault.
Just to clarify, gaining an edge is not cheating. He is not gaining an edge, he is unfairly gaining an edge (aka cheating).. big difference.
OP plans on not having them play at the game anymore .. as stated "And the two of us agree that he is guilty as charged.
We also agree that there is really no way he can continue in the game, even if an abject and sincere apology is made."
So OP is 100% certain that they are cheating. Not supposedly.
OP is not 100% certain that is the only way they are cheating or if there is collusion.
OP will have to decide what is the best / most tactful way to remove the cheater with the least impact to the game.
He has been given alot of advice, but he knows the dynamics of the situation much better than an outsider and will have to make a decision based on that.
I am stating that I personally think your logic is flawed.
You are inferring the cheater is only doing it because of a lack in shuffling/dealing procedure, and that if you change/correct the procedure, you have cured him of his cheating tendencies. I don't believe that is correct or logical.
I am inferring, based on the OPs stated facts, that he is a cheater and this is (possibly only one of) the means they are currently using.

 

[WedgeRock]

I've only got through page 1 (how the hell did you guys do 8 pages since noon?!), so please forgive me if I repeat what others have said.

The easiest way is to let him walk away, but that does a disservice to the group. Others may play in other games with him and be exposed to his cheating there.

It may seem harsh to label someone as a cheat, but assuming you have proof, he doesn't have that great of character to begin with. It's all a charade.

I would inform the group first. Tell them he's not welcome at the game anymore and tell them why. Ask others for their input. There will be those that defend him, don't let those comments detract from your decision. More importantly, there will be those that support the decision to boot him. For his supporters, hearing that is not just you and a personal vendetta will be a good thing. It might change minds hearing multiple people express the same concerns you have.

The news will invariably get back to him if the group is as tight as you say. I'd plan on calling him right after you talk to the group. Let him know your decision and offer to talk to him face to face about it. My guess is he won't take you up on it, but you offered.

Another option would be to tell the whole group (including the cheat) without revealing who the cheat is. You might get a different discussion.

Edit to add that he doesn't respect you or your game if he takes to this open and obvious cheating ... He thinks he can get away with it.

Edit 2: also, your game breaks up...dibs.

 

[Trihonda]

@Anthony Martino I can’t get video evidence if I don’t invite him back! So either we decide we already know enough, or we have to let him run his racket for another game, which no one seems to think is kosher...

I deal with criminals and cheats all the time. I’ve spent months doing a dishonest employee investigation, where on paper we had them dead to rights, but would wait months more to get the deed on video. Video eliminates the need for you to explain ANYTHING. Especially in your particular situation. Video might sway those who will defend him to the death. It eliminates question. And your OP was all about how to navigate this issue with friends.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I played in a game with a bunch of "friends", back when I trusted people implicitly. The host used the same overhand shuffle method as described above. I also noticed he tended to separate the higher value cards when collecting them to shuffle, and for some reason the Aces were always slightly crimped. One of the other players even warned me that the host and his wife had a mysterious tendency to win when one or the other was dealing. If I cut the deck too thin (not on the crimped cards), used a center cut (poke cards from the middle and put them on top) or sat out a hand and told the host to deal me out (not a SB/BB type of game back then), there were loud complaints. I knew there was something not right, but could never prove it.

Years later I came across an e-book that laid it all out, the false shuffles (only possible with overhand shuffles), moving cards through the deck (also much easier with an overhand shuffle), crimping to induce a favorable cut, and a bunch of other techniques that I now recognize were being used at the time. Pretty sad given that it was a 25c ante game amongst a group that had known each other for years, with a $20 buyin. Since then whenever I see an overhand shuffle, my first inclination is to run away and find another game.

Not saying your guy does all of this, but if he knows one technique, he probably knows them all.

 

[gopherblue]

Not that it matters in the least, but I’ve met @Taghkanic and he is a stand up guy. I’ve not played in his game, but been invited (it’s a timing issue, since I’m not around when the game is on). He’s thoughtful, and if he’s reached this conclusion and was prudent to do it over time, to be sure, it is solid.

I don’t envy him this situation or the next steps, and I don’t really have anything to add that hasn’t been said. But good luck. And you’re welcome to drop by for a whisky anytime.

 

[ekricket]

You just need to quit hosting. If you can’t man up and run a game with integrity because you’re scared of making the “cool kids” mad then you should not be hosting any poker game involving money.
How you preserve your game is run it with honesty and integrity. Anything short of that will doom it eventually. Especially wishy washy “try to keep everyone happy”.
If you have to run a compromised game just to “keep enough players” or to stay with the popular crowd then you are literally opening the door to all kinds of undesirable players and situations, and you just need to accept that and quit asking for advice on an irredeemable situation that you are perpetuating.

 

[Kyle]

A "Friend" joins your Friendly poker game among friends and consistently cheats when he is dealing is not a friend to you and or the other friends and friends of friends. He is a piece of garbage and a scumbag.

If you still think he is a friend after this then that is another issue all together. He is not a friend to you or the other friends he cheats. Kick him out and if the others leave then they aren't your friends either. They can have a shady friendship for as long as they want. Fuck em.

Like @justsomedude says, if you have friends like that then who needs enemies.

 

[realcdn]

I think this thread needs another intermission! Here’s what I hear every time I see the title

 

[Highli99]

Been using three of them for the last couple of years with no problems. @k9dr uses them to live stream his meetup.

i enjoy that stream. I come for the great poker action. I stay all night to watch people sleeping on couches.

 

[Taghkanic]

@ekricket : Neither I nor the other watcher are “scared” to do what’s necessary. Comments like that are precisely what sucks about internet conversations: People not really reading carefully, reacting off the cuff, posturing without truly thinking, etc. I described the situation here to get constructive advice on how to present the situation to my full group, in which this player has been embedded before I inherited the game from previous hosts... not to find a way out of dealing with it. FFS.

@Kyle: Per above, the player was involved in the game long before I became the host. It’s not like he waltzed into my home and started running roughshod over us. Over the past decade I’m the third person to host this game (not counting a fourth guy who briefly ran it as a not-very-successful one-table tourney to which he only invited about half our regs... which caused a separate set of problems and resentments. I took it over from him, and restored the full roster of invitees).

Some commenters seem determined to brush past the original problem described. The group of players isn’t some arbitrary group of strangers, and the cheater is not some rando who walked off the street into a casino and got caught, never to be seen again. The people who play at my place, including the offending player, have longstanding relationships and histories.

So when I tell the guy he’s out, that’s not going to happen in a vacuum. Much as I’d like to, I can’t just say “later dude” and expect no one to ask what happened. The fallout’s gonna have to be managed.

I appreciate those comments here which have constructively and supportively helped think through how to address the situation—most importantly, how best to handle breaking the news to the rest of the group once he has been privately confronted and disinvited.

The thoughts of those who have been through similar situations are particularly valuable here.

 

[Lemonzest]

@Taghkanic I hear you. When the guy was cheating in our group it was complicated. There are friendships that span decades. Its easy to pound ones chest and provide over simplified solutions on the internet but real life is more complex.

 

[flipupchipup]

Never said blow up the game. Not sure how you infer that from my posts.
You make it sound like it is not his fault.
Just to clarify, gaining an edge is not cheating. He is not gaining an edge, he is unfairly gaining an edge (aka cheating).. big difference.
OP plans on not having them play at the game anymore .. as stated "And the two of us agree that he is guilty as charged.
We also agree that there is really no way he can continue in the game, even if an abject and sincere apology is made."
So OP is 100% certain that they are cheating. Not supposedly.
OP is not 100% certain that is the only way they are cheating or if there is collusion.
OP will have to decide what is the best / most tactful way to remove the cheater with the least impact to the game.
He has been given alot of advice, but he knows the dynamics of the situation much better than an outsider and will have to make a decision based on that.
I am stating that I personally think your logic is flawed.
You are inferring the cheater is only doing it because of a lack in shuffling/dealing procedure, and that if you change/correct the procedure, you have cured him of his cheating tendencies. I don't believe that is correct or logical.
I am inferring, based on the OPs stated facts, that he is a cheater and this is (possibly only one of) the means they are currently using.

Yes the main issue here is not whether the accused should be banned, but how to deal with the issue as to now blow up the game, from what I understand in the OP. Having pondered this deeply myself in recent weeks, I can understand the OPs conflict.

and flawed logic? I'm taking the exact stance that a casino would, to fairly control their games. It's the hosts job to make sure that people are not able to gain an edge whether intentional or not by preventing as much as they can. Do casino's allow self shuffling and dealing? Of course not, and these are some of the many reasons why. The problem here is less to do with one person abusing the system, but that the system itself can be easily abused. Build a better system. If you don't fix the underlying problem at hand then the issue will very likely just repeat itself in the future with someone else, assuming no one else is not doing this as well already. Handling the issue by just banning one person and following that up with nothing else is asinine.

If you think that logic is flawed, I'm not sure how there are so many casino's in business.

 

[ekricket]

@ekricket : Neither I nor the other watcher are “scared” to do what’s necessary. Comments like that are precisely what sucks about internet conversations: People not really reading carefully, reacting off the cuff, posturing without truly thinking, etc. I described the situation here to get constructive advice on how to present the situation to my full group, in which this player has been embedded before I inherited the game from previous hosts... not to find a way out of dealing with it. FFS.

@Kyle: Per above, the player was involved in the game long before I became the host. It’s not like he waltzed into my home and started running roughshod over us. Over the past decade I’m the third person to host this game (not counting a fourth guy who briefly ran it as a not-very-successful one-table tourney to which he only invited about half our regs... which caused a separate set of problems and resentments. I took it over from him, and restored the full roster of invitees).

Some commenters seem determined to brush past the original problem described. The group of players isn’t some arbitrary group of strangers, and the cheater is not some rando who walked off the street into a casino and got caught, never to be seen again. The people who play at my place, including the offending player, have longstanding relationships and histories.

So when I tell the guy he’s out, that’s not going to happen in a vacuum. Much as I’d like to, I can’t just say “later dude” and expect no one to ask what happened. The fallout’s going to have to be managed.

I appreciate those comments here which have constructively and supportively helped think through how to addressed the situation—most importantly, how best to handle breaking the news to the rest of the group once he has been privately confronted and disinvited. The thoughts of those who have been through similar situations are particularly valuable here.

No, i appreciate the situation and have - believe it it not- read every post before I replied.
You are saying you suspected cheating, so you confirmed it, and now you are determined to kick this player out but you don't want anyone else to know why because then your game will become unpopular.
It will become unpopular you say, because your players would rather play with this cheater than play in an honest game.
I’m saying that your game should be popular because its honest, not because cool people play in it, and if your players don’t want that - they’d rather have the cool cheating kid - then you should quit hosting if you can’t risk pissing them off in some way. You are letting fear make your decisions instead of integrity and if it’s not this incident, then some other thing you are afraid of and not address immediately and decisively that will kill your game or cripple it.
So let someone else host this historical game, somebody that can make integrity decisions and not worry about being unpopular.

 

[Beakertwang]

i enjoy that stream. I come for the great poker action. I stay all night to watch people sleeping on couches.

Remind me not to sleep at his house for that meetup. Creepy.

 

[Steppenwolf]

A nugget of wisdom from The Count of Monte Cristo:

Edmond : Señor Vampa, allow Jacopo to live. He's already suffered enough with the prospect of being buried alive. The men that wanted to see some sport have seen it. Those who wanted mercy for Jacopo will get it. And by keeping me and Jacopo, you will have yet another skilled sailor and fighter for your crew.

Luigi : [considering] It's a deal.

 

[softchewy]

Yes the main issue here is not whether the accused should be banned, but how to deal with the issue as to now blow up the game, from what I understand in the OP. Having pondered this deeply myself in recent weeks, I can understand the OPs conflict.

and flawed logic? I'm taking the exact stance that a casino would, to fairly control their games. It's the hosts job to make sure that people are not able to gain an edge whether intentional or not by preventing as much as they can. Do casino's allow self shuffling and dealing? Of course not, and these are some of the many reasons why. The problem here is less to do with one person abusing the system, but that the system itself can be easily abused. Build a better system. If you don't fix the underlying problem at hand then the issue will very likely just repeat itself in the future with someone else, assuming no one else is not doing this as well already. Handling the issue by just banning one person and following that up with nothing else is asinine.

If you think that logic is flawed, I'm not sure how there are so many casino's in business.

apologies, I think I misunderstood your posts as soley fixing the dealing and not addressing the player and removing them from the game.
At least that is what I got form your posts about not "blowing up" the game..?

 

[flipupchipup]

ending is funny, I had this pulled up before reading the OP

 

[JMC9389]

I think you'd have 95% of this board in for a custom Paulson group buy at $1 a chip. I don't think it's a stretch to say that we'd buy almost a million chips at that price point if such a group buy took place today.

 

[yone]

I personally would rather have no game than run a compromised game.
Go with what you feel is right. I think the players will respect you for it. Fearing players will boycott the game for a cheater, will cloud your mind. We are all human and make decisions that don’t agree with others. The time you took to come to this conclusion is very understandable. It’s a very tough situation, but I would address it from the heart; either to the individual or to the group, whichever makes you feel comfortable.
Good luck.
And I’m sure if it turns out your game dies, players will definitely miss it - and you can start it up again.

 

[Jeevansluck]

If you know you are going to lose players from banning the guy then I would 100% put it on the player.

As in, I would email the player and tell him that you know that he gains an advantage from the way he shuffles. Tell him in the future that everyone is required to properly riffle shuffle and cut the deck so that no-one can gain an advantage and keep it fair to everyone. Send a second email to everyone in the group explaining only proper shuffling and dealing requirements but make no mention about cheating.

In the first email tell him that if he refuses to shuffle and cut properly then he can no longer be in the game and make it his choice. If he no longer returns then you can explain to everyone at your next game that the guy left the game because he wasn't willing to follow proper procedures and that it was his decision to not return. If he returns and reverts to his old ways then take the deck from him and shuffle for him the rest of the night and tell him it is his last game. If the other players object then you can explain how he is using it to gain an advantage over the other players and why proper shuffling procedures are now necessary. I wouldn't ever use the word cheating and leave it to everyone else to draw their own conclusions.

This has got to be the most valuable response in this thread.

 

[Flat12]

I deal with criminals and cheats all the time. I’ve spent months doing a dishonest employee investigation, where on paper we had them dead to rights, but would wait months more to get the deed on video. Video eliminates the need for you to explain ANYTHING. Especially in your particular situation. Video might sway those who will defend him to the death. It eliminates question. And your OP was all about how to navigate this issue with friends.

Taghkanic,

I agree with Trihonda's assessment and recommendations.

I understand your reluctance to engage in video surveillance because you mentioned the game room is sparse and any gadget will stick out like a sore thumb.

However, have you considered utilizing a stealthy video recording app for your smartphone ?

People play with their phones at the poker table all the time. It's not out of place to do so unless you have the phone sitting at your crotch like Mike Postle.

If you are on Android, have a look at Quick Video Recorder by Kimcy929.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kimcy929.secretvideorecorder&hl=en

I use the app on my phone.

It allows me to record covertly even with the home screen switched off.

Most people believe that the action of switching off your home screen will also deactivate the camera. By default, this is true and people are lulled into believing no footage is being recorded if they see that your phone's home screen is off

The app gives you the option to record using the back facing (main) camera, or, the selfie camera.

If you use the selfie camera, it is visible to your target that the home screen is off, although you can just as easily pull off the deed with the back (main) camera which should be of higher resolution than the selfie front cam.

In order to sell the idea, you just have to make sure people see the home screen is deactivated.

The way I do this :-

(1) I activate the app while pretending to text or read phone messages.
(2) I switch off the home screen
(3) You should also incorporate some comportment into your act. For example, I have expressive hands.....like an Italian. I move my hands when I talk. I can hold my phone in one hand, and naturally wave them about while conversing. Of course, for viewable footage, you will stop moving your hands and keep the camera steady when your target execute his shuffle mechanics. By that time, you would have put on enough of an act that no one suspects anything sinister with you having a phone in your hand. And why should they ? You can even pretend to be calling someone by having the phone to your ear while having the camera aligned to your target.

 

[SeanGecko]

 

[Jeevansluck]

Love this scene...

"You can either have the hammer and the money or you can walk out of here...but you can't have both"

Cheaters justice !!!!

@Taghkanic get yourself a cattle prod...problem solved...