This one was a first for me (2 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

The only guy who comes out of this clean is the villain.

 

[Lunettesman]

I m young but with an old school mind. If something is wrong it's my fault. Period. I showed my hand to early? My fault. Bottom line. Saying it's 15% the dealer s fault when you mention you "immediately" turn your hand is silly to me as well... Take accountability to the max, learn from it and it won't happen again.

 

[Taghkanic]

I m young but with an old school mind. Is something is wrong it's my fault. Period. I showed my hand to early? My fault. Bottom line. Saying it's 15% the dealer s fault when you mention you "immediately" turn your hand is silly to me as well... Take accountability to the max, learn from it and it won't happen again

It won’t happen again mainly because it’s really hard to get struck by lightning twice.

(P.S. “Immediately” here means “as immediately as a guy in his fifties who has a protector or a finger on top of his cards can.” Which for me is probably 1.5-2 seconds at best. I don’t practice flipping my cards alone at the kitchen table.)

 

[Lunettesman]

It won’t happen again mainly because it’s really hard to get struck by lightning twice.

(P.S. “Immediately” here means “as immediately as a guy in his fifties who has a protector or a finger on top of his cards can.” Which for me is probably 1.5-2 seconds at best. I don’t practice flipping my cards alone at the kitchen table.)

So why is the dealer at fault 15%? I don't get it. He had 2 sec to realize that a chip that fell from the guy s hand would be interpret as a call?

 

[upNdown]

Different tenor to your replies ever since you got bent out of shape in an optional forum. (Physician, heal thyself.)

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. I admittedly flip out in the politics forum semi regularly. But I don’t think I hold grudges.
Anyway, I’ll try to step back on this one and follow along in silence.

 

[Budha]

IMHO, I think accountability rests with the “hero” in this situation. We always talk about how it’s each players individual responsibility to pay attention to the action, call their bets, etc. The degree to which somewhat innocuous betting “nuances” get dissected to the inth degree based on the letter of the rules, I see no difference with showing a hand too early. Same rules gotta apply IMO.

Yes, unusual circumstances which are unfortunate. The guy flipping the chip deserves a slap on the head, no doubt. But, I think showing the hand early was an honest mistake, a momentary lapse of awareness in that given moment. Certainly forgivable and understandable, but none the less on the hero in this scenario.

I agree the villain acted with integrity, given it was an honest mistake under unusual circumstances.

 

[timinater]

Tabled your hand too soon by accident. Way she goes.

You flipped your hand before action was complete, that's signal. Everything else is just noise. F**kin' way she goes.

 

[Natskule]

I think the more interesting conversation is what would you do as the villain?

 

[raynmanas]

Kind of my fault I guess for not confirming it

'nuff said. this conversation should have stopped here.

I don’t really agree. Players shouldn’t have to ask “Is that a call?” every single time when normal action indicates a call.

a chip from someone else is not "normal action" - if you aren't paying full attention, which you clearly admit you were not, then you absolutely should be asking the question.

The situation never happens if the flipper isn’t being stupid and interfering with a hand he’s not even in.

how dare he be at the table doing poker things.

 

[dinosaur]

Hey man, I know I’m an argumentative contrarian. But to claim only 35% of the blame on this one? I don’t think you’re seeing it objectively.
I hope we see more opinions/responses because I think you’re way off.

Ooo ooo oo. Me me, I’ll chime in.

Given the original post, I’d say it’s at least 51% the fault of the hero. And I’d be comfortable going all the way to 100%.

It was an unexpected accident. But I’d argue that’s the reason the the hero needs to pay attention to the game. Weird things happen sometimes. But reacting to this accident and revealing your cards is the responsibility of the hero.

Yes there was an accident, but it wasn’t an intentional angle (hopefully).
Yes the dealer saw, but it was a one off accident - so to expect him to intervene in time seems optimistic.
Yes the villain could have said something, but again it was an accident - whos to say he had the time to react properly.

So, while I understand the op is revealing cards quickly so as to not slow roll, that’s his action to decide. Not anyone else’s. And in this particular instance, it was premature.

 

[Taghkanic]

Ooo ooo oo. Me me, I’ll chime in.

Given the original post, I’d say it’s at least 51% the fault of the hero. And I’d be comfortable going all the way to 100%.

It was an unexpected accident. But I’d argue that’s the reason the the hero needs to pay attention to the game. Weird things happen sometimes. But reacting to this accident and revealing your cards is the responsibility of the hero.

Yes there was an accident, but it wasn’t an intentional angle (hopefully).
Yes the dealer saw, but it was a one off accident - so to expect him to intervene in time seems optimistic.
Yes the villain could have said something, but again it was an accident - whos to say he had the time to react properly.

So, while I understand the op is revealing cards quickly so as to not slow roll, that’s his action to decide. Not anyone else’s. And in this particular instance, it was premature.

Pretty lame how many of you are saying I wasn’t “paying attention to the game.”

Just the opposite: I noticed the villain was trying to get a read; so I was looking at the board waiting, entirely standard; I saw a chip thrown in from the villain’s direction, which is 99.9999% of the time a call, so I tabled my hand right away.

If I *wasn’t* paying attention, I’d not have noticed the staredown, the chip flying, or tabled my hand promptly.

Crazily, somehow I was not swiveling my head back and forth to monitor everyone at the table just in case they messed with a hand they weren’t in. (Apparently it’s not OK to talk about action you’re not involved with, but it is OK to interfere with it.)

I also notice that not a single person here has said “Oh, that happened to me once” or even something like it.

In other words, it’s a freak outlier. We probably have millions of hands collectively between us. I prepare for possible accidents and angles, not lightning strikes.

 

[Taghkanic]

Typical social media dynamic:

OP: This town does a lousy job of maintaining their sidewalks. I tripped on some uneven cement and sprained my ankle.

P: Why weren’t you watching where you were going?

P: Why weren’t you wearing ankle braces?

P: Did you really need to be walking there?

P: Oh what are you going to sue the town like all the other whiny woke Americans?

P: When will you admit that you are just clumsy and a bad person? I just need to get my judgemental quotient filled for the day.

P: [quietly] Um, sorry about your ankle, get well soon maybe?

 

[BGinGA]

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

It's entirely your fault, bro. Nobody flipped those cards but you, and it's totally up to you when to flip 'em.

I understand all of the deflective blah blah blah justifications, but at the end of the day, it's on you.

Oh, and it's happened to me once -- prematurely tabling my hand, that is. But since then, I've made SURE that the action is on me before showing my cards. No freak occurrence will ever get me to show early.... because I learned my lesson the first time.

 

[Taghkanic]

I note BGinGA that you don’t describe the circumstances of showing your hand prematurely.

Were you baited or angled into doing so? Did someone induce your action by doing something weird? Or were you just overeager? Failing to distinguish between such circumstances seems less than honest.

I’m not “protesting”; I’m giving it back to interwebz church ladies who would lose it if someone parked in “their” space.

But apparently “doing poker things” includes “practicing tricks you’re bad at during a hand which may interfere with the action.”

Fine. Flicking a chip into the middle of the table when someone is tanking and you are not in the hand is blameless. Got it. Will have to try that at a meetup, I’m sure it will be well-received.

 

[Lunettesman]

I don't understand the point of this thread. Either we said that you were a poor victim and you would have been happy, or we're all idiots... It seems like the second version happened...

 

[Taghkanic]

The point is that it was a one in a zilllion hand which was both funny and interesting. It will probably never come up again. I accepted some blame, but not the childish “you are 100% wrong and must admit that or we will pile on” blame.

 

[Taghkanic]

In any case, a more interesting question raised by the hand: If the villain raises or shoves, do you call?

 

[Budha]

I’m not protesting; I’m giving it back to interwebz church ladies who would lose it if someone parked in “their” space.

But apparently “doing poker things” includes “practicing tricks you’re bad at during a hand which may interfere with the action.”

Fine. Flicking a chip into the middle of the table when someone is tanking and you are not in the hand is blameless. Got it. Will have to try that at a meetup, I’m sure it will be well-received.

Dude, I gotta call this one out. I think you’re being a bit hypocritical here and this is an example of “what’s good for me, but not for thee” based on many of your previous positions regarding errand bets, or slight lapses in pure by the book actions.

No one disputes it was an unusual circumstance. We’ve ALL been in hands were the villain was staring us down to get a read. Peripheral vision exists, I can see to my right or left without having to completely turn my head. You were hyper focused, had already made your mind up to show immediately if he called (again based on a strict adherence to your personal view of “by the book”) and had a lapse in awareness.

Pretty lame how many of you are saying I wasn’t “paying attention to the game.”

It happens, and that action is on you. To say everyone is “lame” is honestly, pretty lame - lol.

 

[Taghkanic]

My calculation would come down to combo-counting, unless I had a lot of history with the villain.

If he raises modestly, I’d tend to assume that’s for value (trying to get called).

If he raises pot+ or shoves, I’m in a world of hurt. He would seem more polarized, but can have:

* A better straight (T6, JT);
* A flush;
* 6x for a chop;
* Two pair or worse (bluff).

T6 seems pretty unlikely given preflop action. JTs quite possible. JTo less so.

Flushes, especially those with flopped combo draws quite possible such as AhTh AhJh.

65s, 67s, other A6s possible. Maybe a few combos of one-gappers with a 6, but not a lot.

78s, 89s, 9Ts, A8s, A9s could be there and need to bluff big to win. Could also have gotten to the river with Ahx I guess.

Kind of a coin flip. Probably have to fold but it would have been close.

 

[Lunettesman]

In any case, a more interesting question raised by the hand: If the villain raises or shoves, do you call?

Had it done a raise it would have been a d**k move. Although as stated I think it's on you, as the vilain I d have had empathy for you and just call you. I have honour. Raising you in that spot would have been not cool in this set up. At a casino different story, home game, respect everyone.

 

[dinosaur]

Pretty lame how many of you are saying I wasn’t “paying attention to the game.”

In other words, it’s a freak outlier. We probably have millions of hands collectively between us. I prepare for possible accidents and angles, not lightning strikes.

I agree that the “stare at board” is the standard play. It is what I do as well.

I agree this situation is a freak outlier.

My argument would be that perhaps there could be more attention paid at the end. In this instance, you came out no worse for wear. But to lay blame on others without being accountable for your action (ultimately early card reveal) insinuates that you were wronged in this situation and needed to be made whole. I believe that would be a mistake. Also, if there were no change in expectations moving forward by the op, I believe that would be a mistake as well.

As an aside, I appreciate posts and stories like this because it allows me to gain more xp without having to experience first hand.

Anyway, this situation looks like a freak accident where multiple parties are at fault and should move on as such.

 

[Mojo1312]

I was playing at Foxwoods years ago when a player, heads-up, tossed two redbirds into the pot announcing he was all-in on the river. The opposing player, who was wearing headphones and a Boston Bruins jersey, tossed two chips across the betting line in turn.

"Boston" surprised afterwards to find out the two chips was for his stack, proclaimed that the only reason he called the $10 was out of curiosity as to what the villain had. Was that you?

I ask, because he too did a lot of protesting.

 

[BarrieJ3]

This took a bizarre turn. Not sure why the hyper focus on “blame”, but it’s a bit weird to me - it’s going to range widely and be extraordinarily subjective.

I won’t speculate on who is to blame - we weren’t there.

What I will say is for *ME* as a player, if I was the chip playing person who dropped a chip - I’d say it was on me.

If I was the player who showed immediately after the errant chip came running on the table - I’d say it was on me.

Just had a hand cash games at wsop - 3 way all in and I won half of the larger pot, except after I tabled my hand the dealer mucked it. I (seat 1) was like yo I have the high hand for the side pot. The player who lost to me called the floor, and I was pretty much like whelp that’s on me, protect your hand at all times at all costs. Luckily my hand was retrievable and the floor was dope - but like, I’m not trying to figure out how much was the dealers or my fault. It’s on me and I need to be quicker at slapping his hand away next time

I appreciate this thread and it was an interesting situation. I’m very surprised by the one in a million or getting struck by thunder twice thing though @Taghkanic. Lol I feel like at our games there’s at least 5+ times an errant chip is somehow rolling through the table, into people’s stacks, out onto the table, etc. Intoxicated (or not) people building monster stacks, playing with chips, etc. is pretty standard and we’re idiots.

Edit - to add the ruling was once my hand was tabled I’m good, apparently not my job to protect at that point (although I still should). Floor was kind. Also, it was literally the BEST dealer we had all day by far that did this. Kid was amazing, this was his only mistake and he felt horrible. So stuff obviously happens to everyone.

 

[Taghkanic]

Edit - to add the ruling was once my hand was tabled I’m good, apparently not my job to protect at that point (although I still should). Floor was kind.

That was my reaction. Once tabled and seen by the dealer/players it ought to stay live, no matter what happens to the cards.

As far as chips flying constantly around your table… Maybe a custom Pinball Poker set?

 

[ekricket]

Nah. I know we often come down on different sides of discussions but there’s nothing personal here.

lol it’s always personal with narcissistic fools who think it’s always about them.
You’re losing this one here, you can’t win augments with paranoid psychopaths, it’s not that they can’t see your side, it’s that your side just really doesn’t exist for them. And it’s 100% your fault for not seeing that.

 

[Dbxela]

I might be tempted to agree, but that is the rule and the practice. I don’t see it changing.

Plus, if you allow such actions to *not* be calls, it opens up a huge gray area for anglers.

No grey area for anglers. Insufficient chips go in, players and dealer insist on correct amount. They discover at that point if someone dropped one. If its someone in the pot they may correct a gross misunderstanding, or make up the balance, or pass and lose the amount.

There's no problem in that system that needs fixing with a rule abount undersized chips being a call.

 

[Taghkanic]

There's no problem in that system that needs fixing with a rule abount undersized chips being a call.

The rule already exists. You’re trying to “fix” it not me.

 

[Sparkynutz]

I’m not worried about how I look. I’m just not being a douche. There’s a difference.

I would put 50% of the blame on the flipper (who should at least have said “oops” and immediately grabbed for his lost chip, which weirdly he did not). 35% on me for reacting too fast. And also 15% on the dealer—yet to be mentioned—who *was* looking at the three of us, had a clear view, and is there to keep order… yet did not speak or hold up a hand or otherwise react to prevent a misunderstanding.

(The dealer said after the hand that he instantly realized what was happening but didn’t think fast enough. I try to turn over my hand right away, but I’m not The Flash.)

I’ll keep showing my hand as soon as called. if 1 in 10,000 times it is a mistake due to some freak situation, so be it.

As another poster said, I mainly just found this interesting because I’ve never encountered anything like it before.

Then lesson learned by everyone.
Delay showing a few extra seconds or verify intent of those in hand first.
It sounds like it may have cost you money had the villain folded.
Honorable of him to just call and not shove. Type of guys that I'd rather play with than the guy that told him he shoulda shoved. Sure I play to make a little money if possible but to me it's more about the food and good time with friends at home games. I'd rather not play with people that unfairly take advantage of others. Many people I play with are very green and screw up simple things all the time. No reason to not help them learn instead of taking their money and sending them packing.

 

[louBdub]

Next time villain stares you down

Stare back. Blow a kiss. Wink.

This is the way…

 

[JustinInMN]

So why is the dealer at fault 15%? I don't get it. He had 2 sec to realize that a chip that fell from the guy s hand would be interpret as a call?

Agreed ,dealer is paying more attention since he knew the source of the chip.

Any blame on dealer is misplaced, he didn't see the live player put a chip in and can't be expected to anticipate and prevent an out of turn tabling.

I am largely with @upNdown on this one, hero can choose not to watch the opponent, but then has to recognize the risk of what happened. (And in fairness to @Taghkanic, I recognize he is taking most of the responsibility here, but not as much as @upNdown and I think.)

Villain took a very sporting line. (And honestly, what I would have done in his shoes )

Flipper guy I guess could be more cautious, but hero isn't watching the live opponent either.