This one was a first for me (2 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

Edit - to add the ruling was once my hand was tabled I’m good, apparently not my job to protect at that point (although I still should). Floor was kind. Also, it was literally the BEST dealer we had all day by far that did this. Kid was amazing, this was his only mistake and he felt horrible. So stuff obviously happens to everyone.

When I was first playing in a casino regularly a dealer gave me this good advice.

If you table your hand and are getting the pot, treat your hand like a receipt. Keep it close and don't surrender it until you have been pushed the chips you are due.

If a dealer mucks your hand in the spot you describe, he has probably read it as a loser amd you did good to correct him at that point.

The dealer's procedure is to muck all losers and only push pots to winning hands.

 

[Taghkanic]

Any blame on dealer is misplaced, he didn't see the live player put a chip in and can't be expected to anticipate and prevent an out of turn tabling.

A dealer has a responsibility besides monitoring only the live player(s) to insure game integrity.

What if someone not in the hand retrieves his cards from the muck and shows that he had 66?

What if someone not in the hand says “call”?

Or reads the board (“the flush came in” etc.)?

What if someone not in the hand otherwise interferes with the action… say by throwing a chip toward/into the pot?

One could imagine countless other scenarios, but any idea that the dealer must not say or do anything to protect the integrity of the hand unless it specifically involves an act by the live players is ludicrous on its face.

 

[JustinInMN]

A dealer has a responsibility besides monitoring only the live player(s) to insure game integrity.

What if someone not in the hand retrieves his cards from the muck and shows that he had 66?

What if someone not in the hand says “call”?

What if someone not in the hand otherwise interferes with the action… say by throwing a chip toward/into the pot?

One could imagine countless other scenarios, but any idea that the dealer must not say or do anything to protect the integrity of the hand unless it involves the two live players is ludicrous on its face.

The point is what was even possible given the narrative? Did the dealer even have any time whatsoever to intervene even if he wanted to. That alone absolves him from blame on its own from my view.

If you flipped it over at the sight of the chip going in, what time window does the dealer reasonably have to anticipate you would make the error? let alone say something to stop it?

Any blame on the dealer comes down to a fraction of a second, it's preposterous on its face.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

With a rotating dealer I don’t think you can blame the dealer at all for not immediately jumping in, most of the time when it’s my turn to deal, if the river is dealt, and I’m waiting on someone who’s tanking to make a decision, I’m zoning out myself. Ultimately it’s on you to pay attention, but I do think the chip flipper needs to be a little more self aware. kudos to the “villain” who turned out to be the hero in this situation.

 

[DanKi]

You had 100% control over your cards and acted intentionally in turning them over prematurely. Really struggling to see how you can assign yourself any less than 50% of the blame.

Chip flipper apologized for his mistake and villain cut you a break. You should be thanking your lucky stars.

 

[Taghkanic]

Roberts Rules, Etiquette section

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:​

[…] taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot

 

[ekricket]

Yeah, tabling your hand while there is still action pending definitely unfairly influences play.


Who gets to decide this? You as the player? “That guy sneezed over there and influenced me”. “The sun was in my eyes, no fair”.

This is just stupid, not just on the face of it, but on the whole body stupid. Probably PCF’s fault by now.

 

[IaHawk]

You must not be married, it's always your fault. (really was this time though).

 

[HiveKueen]

Wow...thanks to the OP for sharing this with us. Sooo much to consider and think about.

Here are my thoughts as I process this situation

1. I will stop flipping chips when not in a hand!
2. any attempt to confirm the call can give off tells to the V.
3. watch opponents carefully when waiting for them to act. Learn how to do this without giving off tells. Establish this as my SOP early in the game so opponents know me watching them is not a sign of weakness or strength, just SOP.
4. What side would I want to err on here - showing prematurely or waiting for the dealer to ask me to show and having to apologize for a delayed showdown? My gut reaction is to err on the side of apologizing.
5. I don't play cash, only tournaments and the TDA rules really shun one chip calls. I had never thought about the angles possible if the one chip call is not allowed.

Again, to the OP, thanks for sharing!

 

[drdr]

Roberts Rules, Etiquette section

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:​

[…] taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot

Interesting. Does that section address intent at all? Probably not, right? I guess intent could be considered when determining to announce warning/suspending/barring. Inexperience players get some lee way maybe.

 

[louBdub]

I think the bottom line is this right here:

I interpret this as a call and immediately turn over my hand

Something out of your control happened, and you misinterpreted it.

It happens. Luckily this was just a friendly card game, and not something serious.

I’m happy if buffed out and the villain was easy peasy about it.

[now pull muck, shuffle up, deal next hand]

 

[btbmason]

Not here to assign blame or give percentages or anything of that nature, but I’ll defend the dealer(s).

If you’re blaming the dealer at any percentage, I’d suggest waiting for them to say or do something before rolling your hand over. You can still stare straight at whatever you want, but if someone drops or throws a chip in the pot and the dealer doesn’t say “call” or any other action, stay with your plan of not moving.

The dealer can’t both be responsible for controlling the game but also controlling everyone when they don’t wait for a dealer action.

Unfortunate situation, worked out ok in the end, we all have a new thing to think about, etc.

 

[Taghkanic]

1) Immediate means “as soon as I could,” not “instantaneously.” I’m not Ricky Jay. Also the chip had to settle. So there were a couple seconds there.

2) 15% isn’t a lot of blame. I do think a top dealer would have quickly intervened when he saw the chip and me reaching for my cards.

3) If I had pretended that I was the chip flipper, it’s 100% certain that some here would have castigated the flipper (more than the player who showed) instead. That’s just the internet for ya. The vehemence of some reactions is the tell.

4) Also telling that few want to discuss the actual decision if the villain had bet or shoved. Much more satisfying to yell “hypocrite” etc.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

1) Immediate means “as soon as I could,” not “instantaneously.” I’m not Ricky Jay. Also the chip had to settle. So there were a couple seconds there.

2) 15% isn’t a lot of blame. I do think a top dealer would have quickly intervened when he saw the chip and me reaching for my cards.

3) If I had pretended that I was the chip flipper, I have 100% certainty that some here would have castigated the flipper more than the player who showed. That’s just the internet for ya. The vehemence of some reactions is the tell.

Why are you expecting a "top dealer" when you are rotating the deal?

 

[Taghkanic]

Why are you expecting a "top dealer" when you are rotating the deal?

I think you misunderstood. It’s not player-dealt. The game has two dedicated dealers each game. They rotate in and out every half-hour. There’s a roster of 3-4 guys the host uses. Most are quite good.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Ahh, my bad. Yeah the dealer should definitely be paying attention then

 

[JustinInMN]

2) 15% isn’t a lot of blame. I do think a top dealer would have quickly intervened when he saw the chip and me reaching for my cards.

You made the wrong interpretation and effectively are outsourcing the responsibility (even if to what you call a small degree) to a dealer to make the right interpretation in the same time frame is ridiculous. It's okay to study this. It's okay to understand why it happened. It's okay to learn from this and decide how to handle it in the future. Those are all valuable discussion. But trying to outsource blame where it clearly doesn't belong is what's turning people off here.

3) If I had pretended that I was the chip flipper, it’s 100% certain that some here would have castigated the flipper (more than the player who showed) instead. That’s just the internet for ya. The vehemence of some reactions is the tell.

Again, I do not castigate the accidental early show. In a heads up pot you only potentially injured yourself. In reality you may have cost yourself half a pot since villain now will not find a hero fold. (Though I think folding a straight is unlikely.) Villain could have taken advantage of a freeroll shove, but didn't. I do think that shows some class on villain's part.

The only castigation here is the deflection of blame, and the belief that your concern about projecting tells entitles you to outsource observation to the dealer. But both actions are player responsibilities. And if you can't do both, you have to decide on what to prioritize. But that is no way on the dealer. Even "15%" blame is laughable.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Pay attention and protect your hand.

The one-chip call invites nonsense like this and opens up angling opportunities. Verbalizing "Call" is not some herculean task that anyone who has powers of speech should want to avoid. Not sure what popularized the one-chip call, but I wish it would leave and take all the throat coverings with it.

 

[JustinInMN]

Pay attention and protect your hand.

The one-chip call invites nonsense like this and opens up angling opportunities. Verbalizing "Call" is not some herculean task that anyone who has powers of speech should want to avoid. Not sure what popularized the one-chip call, but I wish it would leave and take all the throat coverings with it.

I do agree with this, but the problem is if you make one-chip forward not a call, it opens up angles that are way, way worse. So as much as I share your distaste for the one chip call in practice, I really can't wrap my hand around an alternative.

 

[DanKi]

Roberts Rules, Etiquette section

The following actions are improper, and grounds for warning, suspending, or barring a violator:​

[…] taking action that could unfairly influence the course of play, whether or not the offender is involved in the pot

Now ask yourself why the chip flipper’s actions “unfairly influenced” the course of play.

Under typical circumstances a fumble of chips from a player not in the hand would never be construed as a call from a different player.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I do agree with this, but the problem is if you make one-chip forward not a call, it opens up angles that are way, way worse. So as much as I share your distaste for the one chip call in practice, I really can't wrap my hand around an alternative.

I agree. You definitely can't treat it as not a call, just like you can't treat an out-of-turn call (with no change in the intervening action) as not a call.

But if someone does it repeatedly, you can treat it as disrespecting the order of the game and the host can demand that it stop.

And those of us who get all of this can choose to never do it.

Just say "Call."

It's not that hard.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I agree. You definitely can't treat it as not a call, just like you can't treat an out-of-turn call (with no change in the intervening action) as not a call.

But if someone does it repeatedly, you can treat it as disrespecting the order of the game and the host can demand that it stop.

And those of us who get all of this can choose to never do it.

Just say "Call."

It's not that hard.

You’ve clearly never had to use an electrolarynx, Jim. Didn’t realize you were so insensitive to people with disablities. I’m not mad, just extremely disappointed.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

It's not that hard.

That’s what she said

 

[Natskule]

I think you misunderstood. It’s not player-dealt. The game has two dedicated dealers each game. They rotate in and out every half-hour. There’s a roster of 3-4 guys the host uses. Most are quite good.

I don't understand what the dealer was suppose to do. Is the dealer suppose to tell a player that a chip dropped by a player that isn't in the action isn't a call by a player that is still in?

Honestly don't blame the player that dropped the chip either, unless he habitually is dropping chips inadvertently into the pot, but doing it one time while a player tanks isn't that big of a thing, at least not to me.

Odd set of circumstances.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't understand what the dealer was suppose to do. Is the dealer suppose to tell a player that a chip dropped by a player that isn't in the action isn't a call by a player that is still in?

Just say “wait” or “hold up” or any of the other things that dealers do/say when something improper or out of sequence happens.

(Have you ever seen a dealer say something to stop a player from acting out of turn? I have. Maybe 1,000 times. At least.)

Honestly don't blame the player that dropped the chip either, unless he habitually is dropping chips inadvertently into the pot, but doing it one time while a player tanks isn't that big of a thing, at least not to me.

Some people don’t seem to be able to comment on simple poker debates without deploying hyperbolic, moralizing terms and attitudes. (Such as the person needlessly thundering at me here about “hypocrisy.” Jeez. Maybe go into fundamentalist preaching instead?)

Responsibility is a better way to think about these things, I think, than blame, etc.

The player who dropped the chip doesn’t need to be shamed. He just needs to realize that doing stuff like playing tricks with chips between two guys who are in a huge hand is kind of irresponsible, or at least not helpful. The flipper was in fact far more contrite than some here think he should have been.

 

[Taghkanic]

Verbalizing "Call" is not some herculean task that anyone who has powers of speech should want to avoid. Not sure what popularized the one-chip call, but I wish it would leave and take all the throat coverings with it.

I agree, and make a point of saying “call” or “raise” before even touching my chips.

That said… Neither the one-chip call nor the silent all-in shove are going away. These are conventions in every game I play.

On the flip side, a guy I used to play with would always make this science fiction laser sound before he shoved. To such an extent that that sound became a binding all-in among the players in that game.

 

[JustinInMN]

But if someone does it repeatedly, you can treat it as disrespecting the order of the game and the host can demand that it stop.

That may be pretty good approach. Leave the letter of the rule but make this an etiquette point, like table talk that is over the line.

 

[Natskule]

Just say “wait” or “hold up” or any of the other things that dealers do/say when something improper or out of sequence happens.

(Have you ever seen a dealer say something to stop a player from acting out of turn? I have. Maybe 1,000 times. At least.)

Just putting myself in the dealer's shoes. If I saw it happen, I'm watching the guy that dropped the chip, making sure it's retrieved and nothing else, before I'd look at the active players. My first instinct wouldn't be to stop a guy from tabling his cards, wouldn't even have though of preventing that. I just don't see what a good dealer would do to prevent this unless he assumes the player isn't paying attention and has a habit of showing his cards early.

 

[Jimulacrum]

You’ve clearly never had to use an electrolarynx, Jim. Didn’t realize you were so insensitive to people with disablities. I’m not mad, just extremely disappointed.

A guy with one of those used to work at the store across the street from me when I was a kid. I asked him about it and he said he had it because of smoking.

And he told me very sternly not to smoke, which of course I went ahead and tried and got addicted to at 14.

Obviously it was his fault.

 

[Dbxela]

I do agree with this, but the problem is if you make one-chip forward not a call, it opens up angles that are way, way worse. So as much as I share your distaste for the one chip call in practice, I really can't wrap my hand around an alternative.

Could you please describe an example of one of these way way worse angles?