This one was a first for me (3 Viewers)

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Could you please describe an example of one of these way way worse angles?

i throw out $5 to make it look like I called your $200 all-in bet. You proudly table your flush and I fold, saving $195 and only having paid $5....OR you sheepishly show a high card bluff and I table my two pair, taking the whole pot.

 

[BGinGA]

as much as I share your distaste for the one chip call in practice, I really can't wrap my hand around an alternative.

Simple, make verbalization of all actions a requirement, rendering any and all physical actions on their own as totally invalid. How much easier life would be....

 

[JustinInMN]

Could you please describe an example of one of these way way worse angles?

I mean if you raise the threshold of how many chips constitute a call, players facing a bet then would have free reign to move any number of chips short of that threshold toward the pot and if that's not considered a call, would it be considered "no action?"

It's a whole new level of fake moves, confusion, and time wasting.

The more I think about, as much as I hope there might be an alternative, the one chip call might just have to be an accepted lesser evil.

 

[JustinInMN]

Simple, make verbalization of all actions a requirement, rendering any and all physical actions on their own as totally invalid. How much easier life would be....

I get what you are saying here. I am very much a proponent of players using verbalization to protect their action. But then we get into issues about playing environments where it may just be too noisy to be practical, or players that are hard of hearing or non-spoken having a vastly different set of rules.

In fairness, in most home games among friends, this sort of culture is probably quite possible to create. The issues I am raising are proportionally bigger issues in public casino play.

 

[Dbxela]

i throw out $5 to make it look like I called your $200 all-in bet. You proudly table your flush and I fold, saving $195 and only having paid $5....OR you sheepishly show a high card bluff and I table my two pair, taking the whole pot.

How would 5 look like 200?

Dealer says "sir it's 200, add 195 or muck and surrender 5

 

[Dbxela]

I mean if you raise the threshold of how many chips constitute a call, players facing a bet then would have free reign to move any number of chips short of that threshold toward the pot and if that's not considered a call, would it be considered "no action?"

It's a whole new level of fake moves, confusion, and time wasting.

The more I think about, as much as I hope there might be an alternative, the one chip call might just have to be an accepted lesser evil.

"Complete the bet accurately, or surrender the chips"

The incentives are correct already.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I don't want to do this today, nevermind, good luck

 

[ekricket]

Because most games in the world play any chip thrown into the pot is a call, and its been that way for years. You asked for an angle, that's one that would frustrate many people that have played by the one chip call for decades.

If we get rid of the one chip rule now, eventually it could just look like $5, but right now for the majority of players that's a call and would treat it as such.

Not true about one chip worldwide. I’ve played all over the world and I always ask if something weird is happening. People have different customs all over. Not everyone knows this “rule” worldwide.

You aren’t giving anything up by saying “is that a call” - To The Dealer. I get all my clarification from them, I don’t listen to whatever any player is saying or doing.

And anyone who is doing weird shit to avoid “tells” is an idiot. You immediately red flag any observant player when you do anything out of the ordinary.
You have sat there and mucked 20 hands in various configurations, a few seconds here and there, but quick folds.
All of a sudden in one hand you stare deadpan at the board for minutes, acutely focused on it and nothing else to “not give off tells”. Might as well fire up a telegraph. Unless you do that every hand, which is possible for one game because you aren’t getting invited back.

Edit: I also hold my tabled hand until the pot is pushed to me. Dealer doesn’t get my cards until I have all the pot that is due me.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Not true about one chip worldwide. I’ve played all over the world and I always ask if something weird is happening. People have different customs all over. Not everyone knows this “rule” worldwide.

You aren’t giving anything up by saying “is that a call” - To The Dealer. I get all my clarification from them, I don’t listen to whatever any player is saying or doing.

And anyone who is doing weird shit to avoid “tells” is an idiot. You immediately red flag any observant player when you do anything out of the ordinary.
You have sat there and mucked 20 hands in various configurations, a few seconds here and there, but quick folds.
All of a sudden in one hand you stare deadpan at the board for minutes, acutely focused on it and nothing else to “not give off tells”. Might as well fire up a telegraph. Unless you do that every hand, which is possible for one game because you aren’t getting invited back.

 

[BGinGA]

How would 5 look like 200?

Dealer says "sir it's 200, add 195 or muck and surrender 5

Correct. So to avoid any tells, just tank-stare at the dealer, not at the pot.... while still being aware of what's happening, bizarre or not. When it's finally your turn to act, he'll indicate so, and you're already looking at him.

 

[allforcharity]

Correct. So to avoid any tells, just tank-stare at the dealer, not at the pot.... while still being aware of what's happening, bizarre or not. When it's finally your turn to act, he'll indicate so, and you're already looking at him.

But no matter how big the doe eyes I give him I never get the river card that I need

 

[Taghkanic]

Correct. So to avoid any tells, just tank-stare at the dealer, not at the pot.... while still being aware of what's happening, bizarre or not. When it's finally your turn to act, he'll indicate so, and you're already looking at him.

In this case, the dealer actually did nothing initially.

It was the villain who said, “Huh? I haven’t acted yet.”

And then the flipper who said, “My bad, that was me.”

The dealer seemed to be either oblivious to the error, or unsure what to do, if anything.

Anyway I can’t help chuckling at all the posturing from all the keyboard warriors who always bravely stare down all villains, are 100% content that when they ask “was that a call” their voice won’t give off any tells, and only show their hand after quadruple-checking that the apparent bet is in fact a call. We have some Olympic players here.

As far as the one-chip thing, I again just don’t think it’s going away. And in a way it’s clearer than a less-than-full call involving multiple chips, since that opens the door for a claim that they thought the bet was less, etc.

Poker gets messy at times even when a game or room is well-run. With hope this outlier example gives everyone, including me, one more example to be mindful of.

 

[BGinGA]

In this case, the dealer actually did nothing initially.

Exactly my point. Neither should have you.

 

[Budha]

Exactly my point. Neither should have you.

1. If he can’t do it, then surely you (or anyone else) can’t do it either!
2. It’s not his fault!

 

[Taghkanic]

Exactly my point. Neither should have you.

You’re saying that if a player not in a hand does something which interferes with the action, the dealer should sit like a statue and not try to minimize or prevent a problem?

I’ve already listed some similar things which could happen, but let’s try again:

* Player not in the hand starts reading the board;

* Player not in the hand starts discussing odds or other strategy considerations for the live players;

* Player not in the hand blurts out “call”;

* Player not in the hand says “all in”;

* Player not in the hand pushes a calling stack in;

* Player not in the hand splashes the pot;

* Player not in the hand starts going through the muck to find/show his cards;

* Player not in the hand attempts to look at or grab a live player’s cards;

* Player not in the hand says “I had a better straight / I had two hearts / you should raise / this is a great bluffing spot,” etc. …

The idea that a dealer should do nothing except wait for the villain, and should ignore any disruptions, interferences, etc. is kind of absurd.

Obviously a dealer in normal situations needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. But when things go haywire I want them to intercede to prevent further harm to all parties.

In this case, the flipper’s action potentially hurt both me and the villain.

 

[BGinGA]

Obviously a dealer in normal situations needs to be as unobtrusive as possible. But when things go haywire I want them to intercede to prevent further harm to all parties.

And perhaps that might have happened in this case, had you not immediately tabled your hand in error.

That's all I am saying.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

You’re lucky. It’s on you to pay attention

Agreed.

Yeah. Though it wasn’t like I was doing something else like ordering a drink or watching the game on a TV. Had my eyes on the board, trying not to give off any tells, as people often do when getting stared down.

Plus what the player in seat 6 did was just not something one could reasonably anticipate.

I realize this thread is a week old, and I'm just now stumbling in. But here's my take after only reading this far:

As a fairly new serious poker player, I don't think this is "kinda" your fault. I think it's 100% your fault. No, you can't anticipate what happened from player 6. But... weird things happen all the time. Chips do slip out of player's hands and roll onto the table. Often, in my experience. So I still think it's on you to confirm that you were called.

May just be me, but I personally dislike actions without verbal confirmation. Some of the guys I play with may get bothered by this, but I often ask for verbal confirmation of actions that aren't crystal clear to me. Maybe that's just be because I don't have a huge amount of experience. To me, it's just so much safer to ask rather than to assume, and blindly flip over your cards. Once you saw that chip hit the felt, which you admitted you only saw out of the corner of your eye, and did not actually see come out of villain's hand, why not just look at them then and ask, "is that a call?" You would have then bought yourself a few extra seconds for player 6 to say "Oops, my bad. That's my chip." What was the big rush to flip your cards?

 

[Taghkanic]

TDA etiquette rules state that “Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times.”

This was a cash game, but the same principle applies.

Messing around and dropping a chip into a live hand is not protecting fellow players.

The funny thing here is that the flipper apologized for messing up tr hand, as did the dealer for not interceding. But some scolds here can’t handle my shouldering anything less than 100%.

Still not a word from them about the strategy part. It’s about wagging your finger, I get it.

 

[QuailValley]

TDA etiquette rules state that “Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times.”

This was a cash game, but the same principle applies.

Messing around and dropping a chip into a live hand is not protecting fellow players.

The funny thing here is that the flipper apologized for messing up tr hand, as did the dealer for not interceding. But some scolds here can’t handle my shouldering anything less than 100%.

Still not a word from them about the strategy part. It’s about wagging your finger, I get it.

I mean I'm in the same boat as @TX_Golf_N_Poker it is your responsibility (ultimately) to confirm. I often do the same if I'm not 100% of someones intentions. Pausing just a moment to ensure you see that the chips have crossed the line is what you are supposed to do. I mean would you really want to show your cards if he had reraised?

As far as strategy that depends on the game. If this is a private game is it amongst friends or is this a serious game. If its friends, a wag of the finger at the flipper should do it. At that chip that crossed the line is now part of the pot you just won. Tough cookie on them.

Now if this is a serious game, then yeah it needs to be handled differently. with a rotating (non-pro/paid) dealer I dont think it is their call either. They are just another player, it is the house/host's call. They are the ones who make the final calls. Same thing happens at Casino's the floor/pit boss makes calls that get murky not the dealer. Most times in a situation like this a dealer might call over the floor/pit boss, and if someone is acting as they shouldn't the pit boss will ask them to leave.

 

[DanKi]

The funny thing here is that the flipper apologized for messing up tr hand, as did the dealer for not interceding. But some scolds here can’t handle my shouldering anything less than 100%.

I don’t want to keep piling on but it’s not so much you having to shoulder 100% of the blame but rather your deflection and apparent lack of accountability.

Chip fiddling and shuffling are commonplace at the poker table. So are chip fumbles. Chip fumbles into the pot from a player not in the hand can be a minor annoyance but in almost all situations it’s completely harmless because it’s immediately obvious to everyone on the table what happened.

Except in cases when a person (you) fails to pay attention and errantly tables his hand in response.

 

[Taghkanic]

Apparently this is the correct way to avoid a staredown while also not seeing a chip get thrown in, simulating a call:

Shame on me for having my eyes uncovered

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

TDA etiquette rules state that “Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times.”

This was a cash game, but the same principle applies.

Messing around and dropping a chip into a live hand is not protecting fellow players.

The funny thing here is that the flipper apologized for messing up tr hand, as did the dealer for not interceding. But some scolds here can’t handle my shouldering anything less than 100%.

Still not a word from them about the strategy part. It’s about wagging your finger, I get it.

OK, after reading through the rest of the thread, I will revise my percentages. It's 75% on you for not confirming that the chip you only saw out of the corner of your eye was indeed a call, and for snap tabling your hand.

15% on the flipper for his extreme negligence. (sarcasm)

10% on the dealer for not instantly firing up a flare and stopping the game before you tabled your hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

OK, after reading through the rest of the thread, I will revise my percentages. It's 75% on you for not confirming that the chip you only saw out of the corner of your eye was indeed a call, and for snap tabling your hand.

15% on the flipper for his extreme negligence. (sarcasm)

10% on the dealer for not instantly firing up a flare and stopping the game before you tabled your hand.

You got sarcasm drippings on my screen.

 

[Taghkanic]

I continue to completely reject the suggestions from certain scolds that in a bizarre situation created by someone else fucking around, which otherwise never happens, I should shoulder 100% responsibility for the consequences, as opposed to just some of it.

I still think those taking that position are acting like clucking church ladies with nothing better to do than criticize others’ Sunday attire.

The guy who created the problem apologized to me *again* last night when I saw him, as has the dealer. And I’ve replied I should have waited another couple seconds. But I guess those who weren’t there know better.

……………

“Hi, this is your insurance company. We have reviewed your accident claim. We see from the police report that another driver tried to pass you at 130 mph in an 25 mph school zone and pushed your car into a third car. Since you failed to evade the passing car and hit another car, we deny your claim and find you responsible for damage to all three vehicles. We are raising your future premiums and also question why you would file a claim at all.”

 

[Dbxela]

Yeah but someone went the other way at 40 while you were stationary, and you got flustered and backed into a parked car.

Yeah the other car was wrong, but it's a completely unforced error.

 

[Lunettesman]

Seems OP can't stand the people view and is all hurt everytime someone disagrees

So let me reassure you. Chatgpt is on your side!

 

[glynn]

How would 5 look like 200?

Dealer says "sir it's 200, add 195 or muck and surrender 5

"Complete the bet accurately, or surrender the chips"

The incentives are correct already.

Pretty incredible that nobody thought of this until you, the guy who needed help imagining an angle as recent as last Tuesday.

 

[JustinInMN]

I continue to completely reject the suggestions from certain scolds that in a bizarre situation created by someone else fucking around, which otherwise never happens, I should shoulder 100% responsibility for the consequences, as opposed to just some of it.

Fwiw, I am only taking offense at your attempt to place ANY blame on the dealer.

Obviously the guy dropping chips shouldn't be doing this. But it does happen. Usually it's harmless, this time it wasn't. And yes, I think you have the ability to protect yourself by not being so quick to table your hands at showdown at the sight of one chip out of the corner of an eye. I understand your reasoning is it apparently this compromises your ability to avoid giving tells.

While we disagree there, the only other possible place to deflect responsibility is on the player that dropped chips. The dealer can't expect to intervene at all so long as the player is going to take the tabling action instantly.

(To revisit the aside in this thread, one way to disincentivise the regularity of the one chip call is to slow down showdown for players that do this.)

 

[Natskule]

I continue to completely reject the suggestions from certain scolds that in a bizarre situation created by someone else fucking around, which otherwise never happens, I should shoulder 100% responsibility for the consequences, as opposed to just some of it.

I still think those taking that position are acting like clucking church ladies with nothing better to do than criticize others’ Sunday attire.

The guy who created the problem apologized to me *again* last night when I saw him, as has the dealer. And I’ve replied I should have waited another couple seconds. But I guess those who weren’t there know better.

……………

“Hi, this is your insurance company. We have reviewed your accident claim. We see from the police report that another driver tried to pass you at 130 mph in an 25 mph school zone and pushed your car into a third car. Since you failed to evade the passing car and hit another car, we deny your claim and find you responsible for damage to all three vehicles. We are raising your future premiums and also question why you would file a claim at all.”

I guess I'm equally confounded how you are unwilling to take the blame. You prematurely tabled your hand because you were unaware of what happened on the table. How is that anybody else's fault? It was a mistake due to some odd circumstances, a tank, a dropped chip, starring so intently at the board that you don't see what is going on and quickly tabling your hand. Lesson learned, at least I learned a bit, this story will stick with me if I ever find myself in such an odd situation, hopefully others have learned as well.

 

[BGinGA]

It's his lashing out at those who disagree with his assessment of the overall situation that surprises me.

"When everybody disagrees with your viewpoint, your viewpoint is usually wrong."

Closely related to the "asshole in the room" maxim.