I have been playing in a game at the VFW post I am a member at. This game has been running for 10 years after the group moved from another location. Not sure why they moved the game. A member of post vouched for the game but he stopped playing some time ago. When I started playing I was the only post member. They played on crappy, plastic Costco tables with dice chips that were “marked” with yellow nail polish. Woof.
I slowly upgraded the game as far as table and chips. Other things they did were dumb. Only one deck that is shuffled after the last hand, cut to the player on the right. I mention that 2 decks is kinda standard and would save a ton of time. Everyone said that they tried that before and it was no good. One deck is how it is here and how it will stay. No biggie really, it is only a $10 buy-in.
The game plays loose with many re-buys. Game breaks with another $10 add-on. After the break blinds are 2k-4k which makes it basically a shove fest. Things move quick and it gets down to 3-5 players pretty quick. Game usually ends with a chop 2-4 ways depending on the pay structure. After the bubble busts a chop is the usual move.
After I bust I usually jump in the box and deal. I have to put all the stuff away at the end anyways so why not deal. Everyone is very thankful when I deal and I am beyond serviceable. Most card players are more than happy to have someone dealing the cards. Especially someone who is half way decent. The first time I dealt one guy tried to keep the game self deal but nobody heard him. I heard him but didn’t acknowledge. Few weeks later I bust and ask if I can deal. It was this players deal and he refused. He said “We don’t need a dealer. I like to deal myself anyways.”
Nobody contested and I didn’t think too much of it. Maybe he thinks I bring him bad luck or something. He is one of them guys that throws the flop down, way out in front of him. Kinda like how dudes throw down cards when they play spades in jail. This certain player "Player X" always shows up about 30 minutes after start. Strategy wise he is an ok player and I noticed that he likes to open jam with Ax, a lot. Usually A w/ a broadway card.
A few weeks ago I am dealing and it is heads up between Player X and another dude. Player X goes all-in and other player asks “good flop for me dealer” I say “I make no promises.”
I don’t remember what they held and when I put down the flop I did a small, 1 second pause, on the third flop card. The way I spread the flop is after they get placed on the felt, I slide the top card to the left and then the second card goes to the right. If I do it right the second card does not move, hiding the third card still. This happened and I hesitated over the flop for 1 second. Then I exposed the 3rd card.
After the hand was done Player X lost and was bitching about the sweat I did. I apologized and he wouldn’t accept it. He started making a bigger deal about it and I told him he was overreacting. It was not that long of a sweat and normally I put the cards out ASAP. I thought maybe that he was having a bad day or something. It was out of character for him and not that big a deal. I was confused on why he was overreacting.
Move forward to the next week and I bust out and ask to deal. Player X says “ Oh hell no you ain’t. Not after that shit you pulled last week.” I instantly defend myself and we get into an argument. Other players say that if one player does not want a dealer then that is the decision. Player X tells me to not take it personal and we argue again. He says that “nobody has ever dealt before and most people leave or go to the bar when they bust out.” I say I’m not taking it personal and he is overreacting. I have to put the stuff away so why not deal.
After a few weeks to think about this I cannot find any other reason to refuse a dealer but one. Cheating. There is no real reason to refuse a good dealer in this situation. I start to think more and more that something stinks with Player X. I contemplate banning him from the post for being disrespectful. There has been a few incidents with the poker players in the past so I was asked to “keep an eye out” in case anything happens. Since I’m the lone post member, I am the de-facto game runner and would be the witness in case of any actionable incidents happen. I also think about discussing the ban with the current game runner.
I decide to say nothing. Instead I’m gonna watch Player X once he shows up. I am in the 1 seat and he ends up at seat 4, right across from me. Perfect.First hand he deals I am hawking him big time. I am making it obvious and expecting him to say something. I have a response ready “Well you insisted on dealing so I just HAVE to see how you shuffle.”Tensions are still uneasy between us and my heart is thumping away. I am anticipating a confrontation.
I’m not sure if he saw me looking at him. Like I said I was right across from him and I was making it obvious. But he also wears sunglasses while playing so I can’t see his eyes.
Here is where the cheating theory goes from 0 to 100. He collects the cards and picks them up to square them before the shuffle. He picks up the mess of cards and squares them with the card faces toward him. First major red flag. Second thing he does is the overhand shuffle. That’s where the deck is in both hands. Second red flag as this is a known shuffle that is easy to manipulate.
After a few overhand shuffles he goes for about three bridge shuffles. He does the bridge shuffle in one big riffle. Some people let the cards slowly riffle or fall one over the other. Some people can do it in one riffle and the cards go one over the other or close to it.
The way he does it it sounds chunky and doesn’t have the smooth riffle sound when done correctly. (I hope I’m explaining it right). You can hear that the cards are not falling one over the other. He splits the deck and faced the cards away, like normal to square them before the first bridge shuffle. His left hand had the Ace of spades, right hand I forget.
He does the second bridge, fast and chunky. I clearly see at least 5-10 cards go down first out of his left hand. He squares the cards, Ace of spades in the left stack again.
Same thing happens a third bridge and he offers the cut to the player on his left. I watch the cut and it is done correctly. Not sure what Player X held but the Ace of spades ended up in another players hand that went to showdown.
I’m not sure if he saw me watching but I made it less obvious as the game went on. I didn’t want to spook him too bad by watching him non-stop.
I ended busting out 5th and hung around until the end. I assume he saw me watching him so I chose not to hawk him while he was shuffling. It would have been too obvious IMO. One thing I did make sure to see was what he was holding when he was on the button.
I missed some hands here and there, but I was able to catch his last 5-6 hands where he was the dealer before they chopped 3 ways.
AQs,Ax,Ax,Ax,Ax
No shit he dealt himself an Ace 5 times in a row. He was in the showdown each time he was the dealer as the game was only 4 handed.
I’m not sure on the odds but I never get an Ace like that when I’m on the button. I now am pretty sure he is giving himself an Ace.
In my mind it is a slam dunk case of a dickbag cheater. I only needed to see one shuffle to see how he was carrying the ace thru the shuffle. Now I need to see how he is getting the Ace out of the stub during the deal or after. I assume he is leaving a hanger out. Either just above the cut card or leaving the Ace out somewhere else in the deck and grabbing after the cut.
He ain’t going crazy and dealing himself two cards, just one. He seems to be smart and probably knows that giving himself an Ace every time he deals is an incredible edge. Especially when he gets lucky with his second card and it is short-handed. I suspect he is not good enough of a mechanic to give himself 2 cards, just one Ace. And that is really all he needs to get an edge.
With all the info I gathered I believe this game is no good. At least while this dude is playing. If I ban this guy it may break up the game. We are hanging on by a thread as it is, only getting 8-10 players weekly. Plus, they are all friends and if he gets banned they may all just stop playing. Not that big a deal if this game dies. I’m just wondering what the best move is. Banning him or just killing the game. I’m not sure if anyone else is in on it or are aware of what’s going on. I wouldn’t have caught on had Player X not made a big deal out of me dealing.
I'm relieved a little to see more evidence that backed up my gut feeling and I'm not just some paranoid weirdo. It was on my mind a lot and I was almost certain he was up to something and that was before I had any in-game evidence. Now that I go to watch him I am almost 100% certain.
I am going to give it another week to get some more intel before I decide what the next move is. The game cannot continue with this going on. If any locals wanna come play sleuth with me you are more than welcome. As many eyes as possible will be helpful. Or if you are just curious to see a live cheater doing his thing please come and watch!
If I see him carrying the Ace thru the shuffle again that’ll seal the deal. I would however like to catch him red handed, right as he is doing it. That will be exciting AF! Grab his wrist and scream "WE GOT A HANGER SARGE!!!!!"
Anyone have something like this happen and have any tips for me? Should I just kill the game now? I’m pretty sure on what the move is gonna be here but I’m open to all opinions and options available.
Thanks! Mush
I slowly upgraded the game as far as table and chips. Other things they did were dumb. Only one deck that is shuffled after the last hand, cut to the player on the right. I mention that 2 decks is kinda standard and would save a ton of time. Everyone said that they tried that before and it was no good. One deck is how it is here and how it will stay. No biggie really, it is only a $10 buy-in.
The game plays loose with many re-buys. Game breaks with another $10 add-on. After the break blinds are 2k-4k which makes it basically a shove fest. Things move quick and it gets down to 3-5 players pretty quick. Game usually ends with a chop 2-4 ways depending on the pay structure. After the bubble busts a chop is the usual move.
After I bust I usually jump in the box and deal. I have to put all the stuff away at the end anyways so why not deal. Everyone is very thankful when I deal and I am beyond serviceable. Most card players are more than happy to have someone dealing the cards. Especially someone who is half way decent. The first time I dealt one guy tried to keep the game self deal but nobody heard him. I heard him but didn’t acknowledge. Few weeks later I bust and ask if I can deal. It was this players deal and he refused. He said “We don’t need a dealer. I like to deal myself anyways.”
Nobody contested and I didn’t think too much of it. Maybe he thinks I bring him bad luck or something. He is one of them guys that throws the flop down, way out in front of him. Kinda like how dudes throw down cards when they play spades in jail. This certain player "Player X" always shows up about 30 minutes after start. Strategy wise he is an ok player and I noticed that he likes to open jam with Ax, a lot. Usually A w/ a broadway card.
A few weeks ago I am dealing and it is heads up between Player X and another dude. Player X goes all-in and other player asks “good flop for me dealer” I say “I make no promises.”
I don’t remember what they held and when I put down the flop I did a small, 1 second pause, on the third flop card. The way I spread the flop is after they get placed on the felt, I slide the top card to the left and then the second card goes to the right. If I do it right the second card does not move, hiding the third card still. This happened and I hesitated over the flop for 1 second. Then I exposed the 3rd card.
After the hand was done Player X lost and was bitching about the sweat I did. I apologized and he wouldn’t accept it. He started making a bigger deal about it and I told him he was overreacting. It was not that long of a sweat and normally I put the cards out ASAP. I thought maybe that he was having a bad day or something. It was out of character for him and not that big a deal. I was confused on why he was overreacting.
Move forward to the next week and I bust out and ask to deal. Player X says “ Oh hell no you ain’t. Not after that shit you pulled last week.” I instantly defend myself and we get into an argument. Other players say that if one player does not want a dealer then that is the decision. Player X tells me to not take it personal and we argue again. He says that “nobody has ever dealt before and most people leave or go to the bar when they bust out.” I say I’m not taking it personal and he is overreacting. I have to put the stuff away so why not deal.
After a few weeks to think about this I cannot find any other reason to refuse a dealer but one. Cheating. There is no real reason to refuse a good dealer in this situation. I start to think more and more that something stinks with Player X. I contemplate banning him from the post for being disrespectful. There has been a few incidents with the poker players in the past so I was asked to “keep an eye out” in case anything happens. Since I’m the lone post member, I am the de-facto game runner and would be the witness in case of any actionable incidents happen. I also think about discussing the ban with the current game runner.
I decide to say nothing. Instead I’m gonna watch Player X once he shows up. I am in the 1 seat and he ends up at seat 4, right across from me. Perfect.First hand he deals I am hawking him big time. I am making it obvious and expecting him to say something. I have a response ready “Well you insisted on dealing so I just HAVE to see how you shuffle.”Tensions are still uneasy between us and my heart is thumping away. I am anticipating a confrontation.
I’m not sure if he saw me looking at him. Like I said I was right across from him and I was making it obvious. But he also wears sunglasses while playing so I can’t see his eyes.
Here is where the cheating theory goes from 0 to 100. He collects the cards and picks them up to square them before the shuffle. He picks up the mess of cards and squares them with the card faces toward him. First major red flag. Second thing he does is the overhand shuffle. That’s where the deck is in both hands. Second red flag as this is a known shuffle that is easy to manipulate.
After a few overhand shuffles he goes for about three bridge shuffles. He does the bridge shuffle in one big riffle. Some people let the cards slowly riffle or fall one over the other. Some people can do it in one riffle and the cards go one over the other or close to it.
The way he does it it sounds chunky and doesn’t have the smooth riffle sound when done correctly. (I hope I’m explaining it right). You can hear that the cards are not falling one over the other. He splits the deck and faced the cards away, like normal to square them before the first bridge shuffle. His left hand had the Ace of spades, right hand I forget.
He does the second bridge, fast and chunky. I clearly see at least 5-10 cards go down first out of his left hand. He squares the cards, Ace of spades in the left stack again.
Same thing happens a third bridge and he offers the cut to the player on his left. I watch the cut and it is done correctly. Not sure what Player X held but the Ace of spades ended up in another players hand that went to showdown.
I’m not sure if he saw me watching but I made it less obvious as the game went on. I didn’t want to spook him too bad by watching him non-stop.
I ended busting out 5th and hung around until the end. I assume he saw me watching him so I chose not to hawk him while he was shuffling. It would have been too obvious IMO. One thing I did make sure to see was what he was holding when he was on the button.
I missed some hands here and there, but I was able to catch his last 5-6 hands where he was the dealer before they chopped 3 ways.
AQs,Ax,Ax,Ax,Ax
No shit he dealt himself an Ace 5 times in a row. He was in the showdown each time he was the dealer as the game was only 4 handed.
I’m not sure on the odds but I never get an Ace like that when I’m on the button. I now am pretty sure he is giving himself an Ace.
In my mind it is a slam dunk case of a dickbag cheater. I only needed to see one shuffle to see how he was carrying the ace thru the shuffle. Now I need to see how he is getting the Ace out of the stub during the deal or after. I assume he is leaving a hanger out. Either just above the cut card or leaving the Ace out somewhere else in the deck and grabbing after the cut.
He ain’t going crazy and dealing himself two cards, just one. He seems to be smart and probably knows that giving himself an Ace every time he deals is an incredible edge. Especially when he gets lucky with his second card and it is short-handed. I suspect he is not good enough of a mechanic to give himself 2 cards, just one Ace. And that is really all he needs to get an edge.
With all the info I gathered I believe this game is no good. At least while this dude is playing. If I ban this guy it may break up the game. We are hanging on by a thread as it is, only getting 8-10 players weekly. Plus, they are all friends and if he gets banned they may all just stop playing. Not that big a deal if this game dies. I’m just wondering what the best move is. Banning him or just killing the game. I’m not sure if anyone else is in on it or are aware of what’s going on. I wouldn’t have caught on had Player X not made a big deal out of me dealing.
I'm relieved a little to see more evidence that backed up my gut feeling and I'm not just some paranoid weirdo. It was on my mind a lot and I was almost certain he was up to something and that was before I had any in-game evidence. Now that I go to watch him I am almost 100% certain.
I am going to give it another week to get some more intel before I decide what the next move is. The game cannot continue with this going on. If any locals wanna come play sleuth with me you are more than welcome. As many eyes as possible will be helpful. Or if you are just curious to see a live cheater doing his thing please come and watch!
If I see him carrying the Ace thru the shuffle again that’ll seal the deal. I would however like to catch him red handed, right as he is doing it. That will be exciting AF! Grab his wrist and scream "WE GOT A HANGER SARGE!!!!!"
Anyone have something like this happen and have any tips for me? Should I just kill the game now? I’m pretty sure on what the move is gonna be here but I’m open to all opinions and options available.
Thanks! Mush
