1/2NL: How do you play this turn? (1 Viewer)

[Schmendr1ck]

On the way home from SQM this weekend, @ni9n3r and I had a lively discussion about the following hand, and I decided to get some additional input on what my best play is here.

It's Sunday afternoon at the local card room, @ni9n3r and I have been playing 1/2NL for a couple of hours. He doubled up early, I'm pretty even on buy in #2. I've shown down mostly good hands, made a couple of reasonably good folds but also a couple of second-best calls. However, not long ago I 3bet shoved pre for $35 with , got four callers, and quintupled up when I boated. I'm not entirely sure what the table thought of that one.

V1 (BB, $400) seems to be a very old OMC (80s at least, maybe 90s) reg. He likes to see lots of flops, but if he's putting anything significant in the pot, he is nutted or close to it.

V2 (LP, $160) is a nutcase. Not long ago he said, "A lot of people learn poker from books. I've been playing since I was nine, and I've found that you usually shouldn't do what the books tell you." He's rebought more than once, a hundo at a time, and recently called $20 on the flop and a $60 turn shove with on an board.

Hero is in EP with $190.

Preflop:
Hero raises to $10 and gets 3 callers including V1 and V2.

Flop ($40):
V1 leads from the BB for $40. Hero and V2 call, other player folds.

Turn ($160):
Edit: V1 checks.

My main question here is on the turn action - what do you do and why? I'm open to constructive criticism on other streets, but I'm mainly interested in how I play the turn and river to maximize value.

EDIT: Turn pot size was incorrectly stated as $120, and most of the discussion in this thread took place before it was caught.

 

[v1pe]

Did V1 check?

 

[upNdown]

How many chips do you have?

 

[namsupak]

SPR is about 1 with 120 in the pot and about 140 left in your stack. great redraws. I am pretty much just shoving here. I don't really see much else to do. I mean do you do a half pot bet and then how does that really look? What is he calling you with, if he calls then he shoves on the river, are you really folding. If you check and he bets put then you are in anyhow. If you check and he checks and then on the river are just going to check it down? if so then there is no value there, plus if he shoves I am calling then too.

 

[v1pe]

How many chips do you have?

He has $140 after the pre-flop and flop action (started with $190).

 

[CraigT78]

Turn to the side table, take a long swig of a local craft beer, turn back to the table and shove your chips in.

 

[v1pe]

I assume V1 checked it to you. I suppose I agree with these guys that a shove is probably the best play. You have the virtual nuts, plus the nut flush redraw. An overbet shove here looks the most bluffy and might have a chance to get V1 to call. I wouldn't expect V2 to call unless he has a set or is holding a 6.

 

[Forty4]

Actually surprised you didn’t raise on the flop. Only to to control the pot. More than likely you get V2 to fold but if not you can check the turn if you miss. If you hit like you did you could put out a timid bet to hopefully get raised back. Suppose you could check when you did make it to induce a bluff stab from V2 if he comes along.

Now, no point in anything other than a jam unless the players are not paying attention to stack size. I’m guessing that’s what the discussion was.

 

[upNdown]

He has $140 after the pre-flop and flop action (started with $190).

Thanks, I missed that.
Seems to me that OMC probably has the nuts - 10 J - though I suppose it’s possible he has 6 10.
I think I’m probably a check fold here.
I’d be shoving in most situations, but if that read is right, he’s probably ahead, but he’s almost definitely at least tied.

 

[BGinGA]

If V1 checks, jam. If V1 bets, jam. Not folding, even to omc. Lots of 2 pair hands, sets, or big draws (KhTh, etc.) he could be betting with on flop. Coffee and jam, it's a tasty combination.

 

[colter ripton]

Yeah jam it

No way I'm folding here especially with the nut redraw. If the villains are going to call 60 or 70 they will likely call your all in also.

 

[timinater]

I don't disagree with just jamming, you've got a re-draw against calls and you give yourself a decent enough chance to win the hand. But if the question is how do we get the most value, then we need to find a way to get V1 to put more money in with his non-nut hands that he check/folds to a jam.

So, why are we jamming when that will likely force V1 and V2 to fold the hands we have crushed, and call with the hands that leave us with about 25% or less equity?

Not sure how V1 had been playing, but he sure could have any set (99,88,77), plus TJs, TJos and maaaybe T6. Based on your read he's likely not betting pot with AT,KT or QT, plus you've got blockers to some of those hands. I'm guessing he's got the set when he slows down. Pot size bet, then a check with the scarecard? Unless you've got a slowplay read he's probably scared of that 5 completing an open ender (rightly or wrongly).

I don't hate a smaller bet hoping to induce a call or raise from V2 knowing you may very well end up being forced to call your entire stack. Depending on how action goes V1 may call a small bet or go away to a jam. If you do get jammed on you are probably getting a great price on your re-draw at that point and can call profitably.

I say all this expecting you are likely just getting it in on this turn with V2 and V1 will go away. This is likely about the only way you can get V1 to call with any hand you are currently ahead of.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Sorry for the omission: V1 checked the turn, so action is on me.

 

[DrStrange]

This is no time for a fancy play. Hero has one pot sized bet left. As I see it, now is the time to bet. I vote jam all-in.

I laugh at the notion of Old man, Coffee calling a preflop raise with T6. JT from the BB as described is plausible. The idea BB checks the turn with JT is interesting - seems a bit out of character but maybe he has reason to hope for a check-raise. I range BB with a set or two pair, with the nut straight as a less likely possibility.

There are lots of hands that could improperly call a pot sized jam from hero - flush draws, sets, perhaps a straight draw or even two pair. Hero's recent 35s hand might help get an improper call. Let's give the villains a chance to make a mistake. For sure Hero is going broke vs a better straight unimproved on the river.

DrStrange

 

[Kain8]

 

[Forty4]

My main question here is on the turn action - what do you do and why? I'm open to constructive criticism on other streets, but I'm mainly interested in how I play the turn and river to maximize value.

Unfortunately from the context I think hero jams and everyone folds but thinks he left money on the table by not getting fancy.

 

[kmccormick100]

I think you’re way ahead here of both of their ranges (I doubt OMC is slowplaying a straight with a flush draw out there) and your challenge is to get the most value possible out of your essentially nut hand with a nut redraw. I’m gonna disagree here with everybody and bet about $75, hoping to get a call (or better yet, shove) from both villains. This is a golden value spot and I think a shove is too likely to push them both out on a now scary board.

 

[Kain8]

I think you’re way ahead here of both of their ranges (I doubt OMC is slowplaying a straight with a flush draw out there) and your challenge is to get the most value possible out of your essentially nut hand with a nut redraw. I’m gonna disagree here with everybody and bet about $75, hoping to get a call (or better yet, shove) from both villains. This is a golden value spot and I think a shove is too likely to push them both out on a now scary board.

I respectfully disagree. Any bet is going to look strong on this board, so we may as well go for the maximum. If OMC has a set, we bet $75, and he calls, we've left money on the table when he doesn't boat up on the river. He sure isn't going to call off the rest of his stack if he misses I would imagine. Don't give a hoot at all about the maniac villain either as our flush draw by itself can be ahead of his massive range. Charge with your all-in and let them make their bad calls. If they don't call the all-in, they weren't calling $75 anyway.

 

[kmccormick100]

I respectfully disagree. Any bet is going to look strong on this board, so we may as well go for the maximum. If OMC has a set, we bet $75, and he calls, we've left money on the table when he doesn't boat up on the river. He sure isn't going to call off the rest of his stack if he misses I would imagine. Don't give a hoot at all about the maniac villain either as our flush draw by itself can be ahead of his massive range. Charge with your all-in and let them make their bad calls. If they don't call the all-in, they weren't calling $75 anyway.

Is your OMC calling an over pot sized shove with Kxdd or Qxdd? I think you’re getting value from worse flush draws that a shove pushes out.

 

[Anthony Martino]

It's either a shove or a small bet of $40 to induce value by getting additional calls or someone coming over the top with a hand you beat, cause they think you're weak.

Generally I try to avoid FPS at lower limits, so I lean towards the jam in this spot, given pot size compared to your stack

 

[v1pe]

I think OMC is either shrug calling with a set+ or he's calling with the straight that beats you. I don't think he's calling any reasonably sized bet without a strong made hand.

I'm not really concerned with OMC, I'm shoving to try to get there maximum from V1 and I think a bluffy looking shove accomplishes that best. I could get behind betting smallish, but I think there are enough scare cards on the river that you're probably better off getting it in here with a bet that looks a little suspect to V1.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

So the strong consensus seems to be a jam.

When talking about the hand after the fact, @ni9n3r and I had a long debate that basically came down to two options:

1. Jam it and try to get V2's stack. V2 has a super-wide calling range, and V1 probably folds anything other than JT or maybe sets.
2. Bet small ($60ish) to keep V2 in the pot, give V1 better odds to see one more card, and make a river jam easier for one or both to call with a weaker hand.

We both saw some merit in either option, so I brought the hand here.

Unfortunately from the context I think hero jams and everyone folds but thinks he left money on the table by not getting fancy.

Well, you're correct about the results - I jammed turn and both villains folded. However, at the end of our off-table discussion, I felt pretty strongly that this was the right play. V2 calls wide enough that we get his stack if he has any piece or a flush/straight draw, V1 often folds away his equity with set/2P hands, and if V1 wakes up with the one hand we're worried about (JT), we're still very live.

I posted the hand because I wanted a little more discussion on the merits of "fancy" option #2 given the specific villains in this hand, and it sounds like my opinion seems to be the consensus - just jam it.

 

[Burke]

 

[Ronoh]

When unsure just jam it in and hope for the best

 

[Ghoti]

I kinda like checking to the nutcase. But if he's more loose/passive, then I like jamming.

 

[Kain8]

Well, you're correct about the results - I jammed turn and both villains folded. However, at the end of our off-table discussion, I felt pretty strongly that this was the right play. V2 calls wide enough that we get his stack if he has any piece or a flush/straight draw, V1 often folds away his equity with set/2P hands, and if V1 wakes up with the one hand we're worried about (JT), we're still very live.

I posted the hand because I wanted a little more discussion on the merits of "fancy" option #2 given the specific villains in this hand, and it sounds like my opinion seems to be the consensus - just jam it.

Very well put. You either win the pot now which is well worth taking down or you create an even larger pot with at WORST, 9 nut outs if you come across JT. The high likelihood of your straight being best along with having a draw heavy board means that you should lean towards heavier betting.

 

[v1pe]

Yeah, I'd say that the vast majority of the time you have a pretty clear value hand you should be getting as much money in as possible. Especially at the low stakes.

 

[BGinGA]

If V1 does have a set, you lose two flush outs (7h, 5h), plus he has the quads draw. Sounds like he had two pair with six outs and folded, or maybe just an overpair.

 

[Frogzilla]

Very well put. You either win the pot now which is well worth taking down or you create an even larger pot with at WORST, 9 nut outs if you come across JT. The high likelihood of your straight being best along with having a draw heavy board means that you should lean towards heavier betting.

would be killer- 5 outs (blocks two hearts and two give the str flush)

Just being a pedant though...jam it in and let V2 make a -ev call

 

[Schmendr1ck]

would be killer- 5 outs (blocks two hearts and two give the str flush)

Just being a pedant though...jam it in and let V2 make a -ev call

Yeah, that's the monster under the bed, but if that's what V1 has, NH GG rebuy, waitress bring me a beer please.